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Good point. If we made the cut that would be a big deal that if positioned well enough could differentiate Dayton from the crowd. The key is marketing and building the right attractions to make a trip here worth it. That's always been the issue...
...But, most important, it's what makes Dayton different from other towns. You can't compare it to anything like what's going on in Over-the-Rhine. That's "quaint" and maybe economically practical for some people. Neither of those ideas apply.
I discovered the population vs household discrepancy back when I was blogging and looking into the shrinking city/urban abandonment aspect of Dayton. Theoretically its possible to a net population decline and still maintain the same number of households (or perhaps even increase the number of households).
To get a good count on this I looked at census numbers for households and housing units to see how the city was shrinking vs raw population numbers.
Dayton's shrinking was indeed in households.
At first this was via urban renewal (which,h in Dayton, replaced a lot of neighborhoods with low density light industry/commercial stuff and institutitonal uses vs the housing projects usually associated with that term) and freeway construction, but then it was straight abandonment, which led to a lot of vacant units and eventually demolitions. The city has thinned out considerably since the 1950s, and its pretty obvious if you know where and how to see this.
The conversation is drifting a bit from the thread header.
The initial redevelopement plan for the Oregon was akin to what 3cDc is doing in Over the Rhine, which was a wholesale renovation of the neighborhood, block by block. After the failure of the first Oregon plan renovation happened piecemeal, but it did happen. I'd argue its really incomplete given some of 5th Street uses and vacancies, but still, this and Wright-Dunbar are the big success stories for historic preservation types of urban renewal in Dayton, maybe McPhersontown, too.
The project that I still have high hopes for is that one proposed for across Wayne Avenue from the Oregon, the one that Louisville developer is thinking about. It would extend an already successful neighborhood via new construction mixed with an adaptive re-use of that old white factory building. The ironic thing is that area east of Wayne up to Stivers, Dutoit and St Annes Hill was largely residential before urban renewal. The industrial stuff was just along the railroad (those old factory buildings).
I discovered the population vs household discrepancy back when I was blogging and looking into the shrinking city/urban abandonment aspect of Dayton. Theoretically its possible to a net population decline and still maintain the same number of households (or perhaps even increase the number of households).
To get a good count on this I looked at census numbers for households and housing units to see how the city was shrinking vs raw population numbers.
Dayton's shrinking was indeed in households.
At first this was via urban renewal (which,h in Dayton, replaced a lot of neighborhoods with low density light industry/commercial stuff and institutitonal uses vs the housing projects usually associated with that term) and freeway construction, but then it was straight abandonment, which led to a lot of vacant units and eventually demolitions. The city has thinned out considerably since the 1950s, and its pretty obvious if you know where and how to see this.
Thanks for the info! You would be the only forumer here who would actually know haha
The conversation is drifting a bit from the thread header.
The initial redevelopement plan for the Oregon was akin to what 3cDc is doing in Over the Rhine, which was a wholesale renovation of the neighborhood, block by block. After the failure of the first Oregon plan renovation happened piecemeal, but it did happen. I'd argue its really incomplete given some of 5th Street uses and vacancies, but still, this and Wright-Dunbar are the big success stories for historic preservation types of urban renewal in Dayton, maybe McPhersontown, too.
The project that I still have high hopes for is that one proposed for across Wayne Avenue from the Oregon, the one that Louisville developer is thinking about. It would extend an already successful neighborhood via new construction mixed with an adaptive re-use of that old white factory building. The ironic thing is that area east of Wayne up to Stivers, Dutoit and St Annes Hill was largely residential before urban renewal. The industrial stuff was just along the railroad (those old factory buildings).
What surprises me is that you're not the first person to comment on the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood as a successful example of urban renewal.
I drew the opposite conclusion. Every time I drive down West Third, I get the heebeejeebies and get the **** out of Dodge as quickly as possible. The storefronts are restored but you can clearly see the bombed out buildings one row over. The only reason I ever have to visit that side of town is to visit the junk yard at the corner of Gettysburg and James McGee, and even at that, I now take Riverview Drive to Philadelphia to James McGee, explicitly to avoid the Third Street corridor.
***
But to bring the thread back on topic - and why I originally posted. If you want to see a big and overlooked reason why the number of households in the city is dropping, look no further than the lack of available, desirable housing stock. Yes, you can pour enormous sums of public dollars and encourage investment in historic districts, and make them look like a throwback to the glory days of urban living, in the 19th century.
But it's a losing battle if you rehab one house in the Oregon District and tear down ten other houses in the outlying neighborhoods... with no plan to build something new in its' place.
Again, you see that Charlie Simms sells out those townhouses as quickly as he can build them... there's plenty of demand for city living, so long as the building is new.
It simply isn't economical to rehab an old house in most neighborhoods in Dayton.
Last edited by hensleya1; 01-25-2015 at 06:49 AM..
What surprises me is that you're not the first person to comment on the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood as a successful example of urban renewal.
I drew the opposite conclusion. Every time I drive down West Third, I get the heebeejeebies and get the **** out of Dodge as quickly as possible. The storefronts are restored but you can clearly see the bombed out buildings one row over. The only reason I ever have to visit that side of town is to visit the junk yard at the corner of Gettysburg and James McGee, and even at that, I now take Riverview Drive to Philadelphia to James McGee, explicitly to avoid the Third Street corridor.
***
But to bring the thread back on topic - and why I originally posted. If you want to see a big and overlooked reason why the number of households in the city is dropping, look no further than the lack of available, desirable housing stock. Yes, you can pour enormous sums of public dollars and encourage investment in historic districts, and make them look like a throwback to the glory days of urban living, in the 19th century.
But it's a losing battle if you rehab one house in the Oregon District and tear down ten other houses in the outlying neighborhoods... with no plan to build something new in its' place.
Again, you see that Charlie Simms sells out those townhouses as quickly as he can build them... there's plenty of demand for city living, so long as the building is new.
It simply isn't economical to rehab an old house in most neighborhoods in Dayton.
Last I heard (admittedly sometime ago), unless the area is officially a historic district, you do not have to put a house with a design from the same period on an empty lot. A choice example used to be in Five Oaks where a little ranch style house sat on a corner amid a string of WWI era housing on Old Orchard avenue.
...But, most important, it's what makes Dayton different from other towns. You can't compare it to anything like what's going on in Over-the-Rhine. That's "quaint" and maybe economically practical for some people. Neither of those ideas apply.
Yes, this is how I'm seeing it. OTR is one of a kind. It was on the ropes, bigtime, but its intrinsic character and historic feel combined with a great location (very near downtown Cincy) is simply something Dayton doesn't have in the same way. While there are lessons that can be learned from revitalizations like OTR, it's going to take a little more creativity. I can see the east of downtown being the site for this, or even west across 75. I know it's a bit gritty over there, but there's something about the look of the place that I like and I see potential.
One thing I see working against Dayton in a way is something that in many senses is an asset - Cincinnati and Columbus are both great cities, and they're very near by. The "90-minute market" as I've heard it described. It also means there's a little bit of competition with the offerings there. One, Dayton has to continue to strengthen its economy. Give people a reason to be here as opposed to there. I see the effort being made. Just needs to continue. There's a lot going for the place. It's got quite a bit of history. It doesn't cost a lot to live here. The greater metro has most things and it's easy to get around, at least if you're driving.
Downtown should be developed as a destination and a place to live. Part of that is having the everyday amenities that make that possible. Yes, that includes a place nearby to get food. It's not for lack of space. I see several places an urban-style grocery store can go. As it is, there's more than I've seen in some downtowns of cities much larger.
Regardless of what my longterm future holds, I'll always root for Dayton.
What surprises me is that you're not the first person to comment on the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood as a successful example of urban renewal.
I drew the opposite conclusion. Every time I drive down West Third, I get the heebeejeebies and get the **** out of Dodge as quickly as possible. The storefronts are restored but you can clearly see the bombed out buildings one row over. The only reason I ever have to visit that side of town is to visit the junk yard at the corner of Gettysburg and James McGee, and even at that, I now take Riverview Drive to Philadelphia to James McGee, explicitly to avoid the Third Street corridor.
***
But to bring the thread back on topic - and why I originally posted. If you want to see a big and overlooked reason why the number of households in the city is dropping, look no further than the lack of available, desirable housing stock. Yes, you can pour enormous sums of public dollars and encourage investment in historic districts, and make them look like a throwback to the glory days of urban living, in the 19th century.
But it's a losing battle if you rehab one house in the Oregon District and tear down ten other houses in the outlying neighborhoods... with no plan to build something new in its' place.
Again, you see that Charlie Simms sells out those townhouses as quickly as he can build them... there's plenty of demand for city living, so long as the building is new.
It simply isn't economical to rehab an old house in most neighborhoods in Dayton.
The Third street corridor has a lot of vacancies but statistically speaking is safe and fine. I think DS, I, and others refer to Fourth St. when talking about the success of urban renewal in the district. That area is doing quite well, fully rehabbed, a bright spot in the city. And actually it plays nicely into what you're talking about with this thread.
It's a district of houses that are either new builds (like the Wright Bros house replica, for instance) or full renovations. Average house price is around $140k. so middle class but accessible. And crime is lower there than almost anywhere else in the city. The issue is the district is too small alone to support the kind of retail they want to have in the commercial corridor.
But either way I agree hensleya1. The city needs new construction homes. There is demand, both downtown and in neighborhoods, the key is to make what's currently in Dayton desirable, shiny, and de-toxed.
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