Dayton Ohio: Does it still suck there? (Cleveland, Cincinnati: subsidized, bus)

[SWOH]

Originally Posted by Giesela

1) I see Dayton as heavily influenced by Appalachian culture. That culture, and this is not a judgement, does not seem to place as much value on the same things as other cultures. When I think of 'house proud' I think of more european influences. 2) When you are really truly poor and all you can afford is crap that breaks easily etc. and have no money for paint or even cleaning supplies I think it is very easy to get broken down yourself and cease to care. A lot of Dayton is very poor. My parents were blue collar factory workers back when that was a decent living, we were not poor enough to have trouble taking care of everything and my parents came from a hard working agricultural background and had decent educations. So I don't know what years and years of poverty would do to me, especially if I had grown up poor by uneducated parents who place no value on education. But I suspect I would not fare well and neither would anyone else on here.

Appalachia has a history of poverty. I have often wondered if the stereotype of broken down houses surrounded by broken down old cars and trash is a reflection of both poverty and the fact that (and this applies to other areas with large rates of poverty like the south) anyone who does make any money ends up supporting other close and extended family members who don't; whether for lack of opportunity or illness/injury, age etc. That kind of...concern for other things besides property can become ingrained enough to be a cultural thing as well as just a practical thing. Are you going to spend money on taking your trash to the dump or give some to your granny so she can eat? One persons slob is someone else's lack of materialism for good reasons.

My own background is european and 'house proud' definitely ruled. The poor from my background probably did value 'house pride' more than some other poor cultures (I suspect you can tell a poor Germans place from a poor Russians place and again, that's not judgement, its just different). But I know that my culture isn't the only one out there. And this is not to say that all Applachians are slobs. I'm saying that money, poverty, is very much a player in any "culture" and how it plays out and becomes ingrained can be different depending on other factors.
I also think that many of these 'slob' or rundown neighborhoods in Dayton and other midwestern cities left jobless in the past 30 years probably looked a lot better when blue collar jobs were plentiful and paid a decent if not extravagant wage. Same people, same culture, I bet the city as a whole looked better before all the decent jobs left.

So I agree with the poster who said a lot of it anyway is about jobs jobs jobs.

Wonderful summation of the issue Gisela. I agree that Appalachian culture does not place much of an emphasis on "house pride" in fact, I have observed the opposite. There is a lot of pride in "big" and "more" - the biggest truck, the most tractors, etc. A lot of having a narrow focus on a couple goals and little care about the rest.

To put it simply, go into one of those houses that looks bad on the outside. I'd be willing to bet there's a 50% chance inside will be the nicest TV you've ever seen.

[Spud1]

Originally Posted by Giesela

I moved here 6 years ago for personal reasons not really of my choice. I'm not from anywhere around here. Dayton does not suit me but I find that slamming something without a discussion of possible causes is sort of useless. I suspect that some on this board lack any ability to actually see the world from someone elses experiences and can only see things from what they would do if they were in someone elses shoes. Hey its not your fault, not everyone has the empathy or compassion gene. A******* are victims too.

1) I see Dayton as heavily influenced by Appalachian culture. That culture, and this is not a judgement, does not seem to place as much value on the same things as other cultures. When I think of 'house proud' I think of more european influences. 2) When you are really truly poor and all you can afford is crap that breaks easily etc. and have no money for paint or even cleaning supplies I think it is very easy to get broken down yourself and cease to care. A lot of Dayton is very poor. My parents were blue collar factory workers back when that was a decent living, we were not poor enough to have trouble taking care of everything and my parents came from a hard working agricultural background and had decent educations. So I don't know what years and years of poverty would do to me, especially if I had grown up poor by uneducated parents who place no value on education. But I suspect I would not fare well and neither would anyone else on here.

Appalachia has a history of poverty. I have often wondered if the stereotype of broken down houses surrounded by broken down old cars and trash is a reflection of both poverty and the fact that (and this applies to other areas with large rates of poverty like the south) anyone who does make any money ends up supporting other close and extended family members who don't; whether for lack of opportunity or illness/injury, age etc. That kind of...concern for other things besides property can become ingrained enough to be a cultural thing as well as just a practical thing. Are you going to spend money on taking your trash to the dump or give some to your granny so she can eat? One persons slob is someone else's lack of materialism for good reasons.

My own background is european and 'house proud' definitely ruled. The poor from my background probably did value 'house pride' more than some other poor cultures (I suspect you can tell a poor Germans place from a poor Russians place and again, that's not judgement, its just different). But I know that my culture isn't the only one out there. And this is not to say that all Applachians are slobs. I'm saying that money, poverty, is very much a player in any "culture" and how it plays out and becomes ingrained can be different depending on other factors.
I also think that many of these 'slob' or rundown neighborhoods in Dayton and other midwestern cities left jobless in the past 30 years probably looked a lot better when blue collar jobs were plentiful and paid a decent if not extravagant wage. Same people, same culture, I bet the city as a whole looked better before all the decent jobs left.

So I agree with the poster who said a lot of it anyway is about jobs jobs jobs.

The way it worked out Dayton got left with the dregs of many "cultures." They all sing the same song now. Expect the Shawnee to come back and take over any day now. Ya know how them injuns are...

[Spud1]

Originally Posted by CarpathianPeasant

No, it is not. (I just did a little checking .) (And, reference, my post copied in the posting above.)

He's from a suburb of Pittsburgh (Greater Pittsburgh). In it's heyday (?) that little town where he grow up had 18,000+ people in it. Now it's down to about 6,100. It's what's often called a "mill town," but a little suburban one. You might call him a mill-hunky, but having been born in 1952, he's probably well Americanized. (The town was already losing population in 1952.)

Now, I don't know what it is that turns them off about Dayton, but apparently there's something in it that does. Just this year (early January) someone elsewhere posted a link to a "hunky" (inference: Hungarian) blog. Being such, I hurried and looked. The guy was likewise from suburban Pittsburgh and was Slovak and Croatian (Kasich is Croatian). There wasn't a thing in the blog that I saw that I would call actually "Hungarian," so I sent him an email note (25 words) asking why he called it "Hunky." A week or so later my polite and innocent inquiry had made me the subject of a blog roast. Why would "I'm from Dayton, Ohio" enrage someone? Astonished, I fished for a reason with a post in the Pittsburgh room and got reported as spamming (which the moderators ignored).

I see Mr. Kasich as pure politician. Dayton's not politically important, especially to Republicans.

Kasich's first job out of college was as a legislative assistant to Buz Lukens. Remember meeting him in the late 80s. Typical smug politician who has never seen the letters FICA on his paycheck.

[weatherphotographer]

Originally Posted by Spud1

Kasich's first job out of college was as a legislative assistant to Buz Lukens. Remember meeting him in the late 80s. Typical smug politician who has never seen the letters FICA on his paycheck.

Funny, your quoting Carp's misquote

I merely said Kasich seems to avoid Dayton alot. He must have meant to quote another post, as his reply makes no sense to my post

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by weatherphotographer

Funny, your quoting Carp's misquote

I merely said Kasich seems to avoid Dayton alot. He must have meant to quote another post, as his reply makes no sense to my post

And, I said "they" don't seem to like like us. Period.

Btw "carp" is fish. While it's likely there's some fish somewhere in those mountains (look it up), I know of no relationship. I don't expect people to spell out the identity. "CP" is okay.

[Spud1]

Originally Posted by weatherphotographer

Funny, your quoting Carp's misquote

I merely said Kasich seems to avoid Dayton alot. He must have meant to quote another post, as his reply makes no sense to my post

You're right, doesnt make much sense. Was making an observation not really responding. And Kasich really has nothing to do with the subject.

[CarpathianPeasant]

Originally Posted by Spud1

You're right, doesnt make much sense. Was making an observation not really responding. And Kasich really has nothing to do with the subject.

He said the governor avoiding Dayton was "Very telling."

I said it was not.

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by Giesela

1) I see Dayton as heavily influenced by Appalachian culture. ...

So I agree with the poster who said a lot of it anyway is about jobs jobs jobs.

I partially agree. Dayton seems to combine influences from Appalachia, the deep South, and places around the rural Midwest. It is more Catholic than Appalachia, and less monolithically white. But the Appalachian cultural influences are definitely there. Most surprising to me, as one-time newcomer to Dayton (in the early 1990s), is how little presence there is in Dayton of (1) first-generation immigrants, and (2) migrants from either coast. I have yet to meet a Californian or a New Yorker in Dayton.

But I don’t see much distinction between Dayton City and the Miami Valley as a whole, or the Miami Valley from the overall region of Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky and Indiana. Dayton is a fairly typical midsized city. It’s neither better nor worse. To see substantive difference, one would have to consider a much larger city (Chicago) or a university town (Ann Arbor).


While the question of culture and economic vitality is chicken-and-egg, I would agree that lack of good-quality jobs is fundamental. With an employment base, educated people won’t be attracted. Without them, cultural opportunities will be limited. And so forth.

[Dayton Sux]

But I don’t see much distinction between Dayton City and the Miami Valley as a whole, or the Miami Valley from the overall region of Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky and Indiana.

I think there are differences when comparing metro areas at the regional scale..as in say, Ohio Valley or Great Lakes, but I sort of agree with looking at this area at the metropolitan area or media market scale..from a regional POV. A lot of the discussion on this thread is around the city, but this is part of a larger cultural picture of city vs suburb & urban vs rural/small town.

The overwhelmingly anti-urban ethos here dooms attempts to promote city life & city culture (very general terms, yes), so a limited market for trying to revive the city...a limited pool of potential "urban pioneers" and "gentrifiers" or whatever you want to call this market of people willing to move into old neighborhoods, downtowns, etc....who value "the city" over life in the multitude of Modern Mayberries of the Miami Valley.

>cue Green Acres theme<
"...Farm living is the life for me..."

[Dayton Sux]

how little presence there is in Dayton of (1) first-generation immigrants, and (2) migrants from either coast. I have yet to meet a Californian or a New Yorker in Dayton

Provincial...but in a bad way...