Chronic Gum Pain/Discomfort Following Frenectomy/Gum Graft (effect, problems, mouth)
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I hope you find what Ive written useful. Some things may work, others may not. I'm of course not a Dentist, not a Doctor and I have no medical qualifications so bear in mind anything you try is at your own risk. I'm just sharing what has improved my dental or overall health. There is a lot more that can be explored though
Wow that's a TON of great information. I am going to definitely check this stuff out, especially the Blue Ice.
I have another question, I wear an orthotic/retainer for my bottom teeth mal occlusion *bad bite). I am worried that wearing it 24/7 may promote the growth of bacteria on my teeth that it covers. It is also getting a bit dirty and has some yellow spots I can't seem to get off, which looks like baceteria. Do you have any experience with wearing retainers, orthotics and how to keep them clean and what their effect of wearing them 24/7 over the teeth is?
There's nothing magical about comfrey, and the FDA wasn't trying to ban it. The FDA doesn't regulate herbs and supplements. It regulates drugs. If the FDA was involved in a comfrey situation, then it would've been because the producer/manufacturer/sales company was making medical claims, or recommending that it be used internally and ingested. It is not supposed to be ingested. It is intended for topical use only.
Beware of any packaging or advertisement that claims something "supports bone growth" or "supports tissue regeneration" or "supports healthy blah blah blah." A piece of cardboard will support my feet if I'm standing on it, but that doesn't mean I should make my shoes out of cardboard. "Supports" is not a medical "thing" with regards to supplements. It has no significant meaning in that context and it just a buzzword that supplement and herbal companies use to sell product.
There *are* benefits to comfrey - it's a natural anti-inflammatory and is also used to pack wounds to make them heal faster, and is used to treat minor scrapes and bruises as well. It's not very effective in the mouth though, because it has to sit there awhile before it can do anything and you will swallow most of whatever is in there and comfrey is poisonous when ingested.
Quest of Truth is recommending a whole lot of pills, to get nutrients and pseudo-nutrients that you might or might not need added to your already-existing daily dietary menu. If you're deficient in nutrition, your FIRST stop should be your refrigerator, and eat better. But you need an actual diagnosis first.
If you still have chronic pain from your frenectomy, then you need to confer with your dentist. If you don't like your dentist's opinion on the matter, then get another opinion from another dentist.
Edited to add: I just checked with the FDA website: They issued a letter instructing certain manufacturers to stop selling products containing comfrey that were marketed to be used internally. Comfrey when ingested, is poisonous.
Quest of Truth is recommending a whole lot of pills
I wonder why someone would determine my mention of one digestive enzyme and the lack of benefit of another as ''a whole lot of pills''.
I mentioned the lack of benefit of alive calcium and the potential benefit of digestive enzymes. That is not a 'whole lot of pills''. Further more, those enzymes are of no concern to someone who has a diet that contains raw foods which I also made very clear.
Ive simply put out what has benefited me so people can do their own research and decide whether they want to try a different way or not.
It is common sense that we should get all nutrients from our foods but some times a supplement such as fermented Cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil (arguably more a whole food) can help fill a gap in the diet and we can't always eat what we need to. Even though I have a balanced diet, I received a lot of benefit from fermemnted Cod Liver oil in my dental health.
Concerning the Comfrey, anyone who takes the time to look at exactly what the FDA report says about Comfrey will see that even the FDA admit they have no evidence.
The FDA state..
Quote:
information is generally lacking to establish a cause-effect relationship between comfrey ingestion and observed adverse effects humans
They also use the terms associated and implicated as opposed to proven. Further more, clinical trials on rodents that give the impression of toxicity used high levels of purified PA's or excessive amounts of an isolated ingredient or a pure diet of 33% herbs for several years. In one clinical trial, the isolated PA's were injected too. The potential of death would be at eating 66,300 Comfrey leaves at one sitting.
I provided the link to those open minded enough to examine the evidence, look at what is said as well as the actual meanings of what they are being told. I refuse to be spoon fed anything and will look deeper than simply what I am told.
Even to show some mild impairment of liver function one would need to consume 4.5kg of leaves per day for 3 weeks assuming each leaf was about 4grams.
Let me be very clear. I am not recommending anyone takes a whole bunch of pills. Everyone should get all of the nutrients they require from a healthy balanced diet. However, in some cases such as diets heavy in phytic acid and low in raw foods, it will have a possible impact on mineral absoption without.
In areas of low sunlight or a lack of outdoors, supplementing with Vitamin D3 may be of benefit and with the changes in environment, increase in toxins and stress, additional Iodine may be of benefit. Since most natural sources of Iodine from the sea can risk toxicity, in such cases a mined form of Iodine may be of benefit.
As I said, Ive simply shared what I found of benefit.
By the way, you said
Quote:
There's nothing magical about comfrey
The patients who took part in clinical trials for blunt trauma or painful osteoarthritis of the knee that received a reduction in pain and swelling without any adverse side effects would disagree, as would the children being treated with it. The clinical trials showed superiority to the placebo too.
Last edited by QuestOfTruth; 01-14-2015 at 09:55 AM..
If you still have chronic pain from your frenectomy, then you need to confer with your dentist. If you don't like your dentist's opinion on the matter, then get another opinion from another dentist.
Thanks for your insight. I understand that supplements can't replace a clean, nutrient dense diet. I'm Paleo so this isn't the issue.
Also, unfortunately I've seen multiple dentists, neurologists, and other specialists and none of them have been able to help me. I'm still actively searching new help though. Know any good dentists in the San Diego area?
Last edited by mymouthhurts; 01-14-2015 at 10:04 PM..
Here's an email between me and the dentist that performed the frenectomy. We are talking about potentially doing a revision surgery to regenerate the healing process which could cure the neuropathy. Thoughts?
Me: What is the detailed theory for how a will fix or improve the current state of neuropathy?
Dentist: If you do decide to have a revision surgery, it is important to understand that it may not address your nerve sensitivity (neuropathy), specially because we are not sure the origin of your neuropathy is or was due to the initial surgical treatment. The above statement is supported by different angles or points of view: your neuropathy appeared months after the initial healing from the surgical procedure, your initial discomfort seem to have appeared around the area of your lower front teeth as well as under the tongue and around the side of the tongue (as you initially reported on our first conversations); there is not published evidence of a side effect of the surgical procedure you received that correlates the type of neuropathy you report. You have visited different specialists and dentists and none of them seem to find the etiology (origin) of your neuropathy and thus, they have not been able to provide you with any treatment. Other published reports on neuropathy or neuralgia seem to relate to muscle dis-function, mal-occlusion (incorrect bite) as well as para-functional habits (like clenching and grinding of teeth at night). I believe you have visited with a TMJ specialist but if you haven’t i do recommended to do so.
Therefore, as a last resort on the extend of my abilities, a revision surgical procedure could be beneficial from the point of view that trauma and repair of the inner layer of tissue on your gums of your lower front teeth could be conducive of a new nerve anastomosis (nerve repair) that if it happens to be related to your neuropathy, it should help minimize it. But if is not, it will not translate in any added benefit to you (impossible to determine at this time).
Let me try and answer your other questions to the best of my ability:
Me:What exactly would be done surgically?
How much tissue would be removed?
How deep would the incisions be made?
Would tissue be grafted? If so, from where?
Dentist: The procedure is called Sub-epithelial connective tissue graft. We separate the gum from the the outside of your lower teeth ( a flap of about 3 teeth in length average) and create a pouch. Then about 15 mm in length and 1.5 mm in thickness tissue is harvested from the inner layer of the roof of your mouth (this tissue contains live cells that once placed into the recipient side should translate in better quality of gum tissue repair). That tissue is then inserted inside the pouch that we created and then the pouch is sutured so the new tissue is pressed between your gum and your bone and teeth.
Me:What is the risk of making it worse?
What are other risks associated?
Dentist: The risks that the revision surgery confer are equal to any standard risks from a surgery of this type (a consent form can be mailed to you that explains in detail such risks) However, in your particular case the major risk is that it will not help at all with your existing neuropathy and at this time is impossible to determine if it will make it worst.
Me: What is the effect, if any, of doing surgery on the same place twice?
Dentist: On a regular patient, a revision surgery should often translate in better quality of tissue unless is rejected during the healing response for which if it is in deed rejected then usually there is not gain in tissue quality and usually remains the same as before the procedure.
I hope I was able to answer your questions, please let me know if you would like to have an informed consent form mailed to you so I can have my office mail one to you (please provide me with you current address if so)
Please let me know should you have any further questions
As you've written this, it sounds to me like the dentist is saying:
You had surgery. It was successful.
Months later, you experienced some new problem, that has nothing to do with the surgery.
Neither this dentist, or a variety of specialists, are able to identify this mystery problem.
You are asking for more of the same surgery you had before. Your logic is that this will fix the problem, as though the problem existed as a side-effect of the previous surgery (even though the problem occurred months after it had healed successfully).
My thoughts:
I compare this to setting a broken arm. They take the cast off, everything's fine for a couple of weeks, all healed, clean bill of health. And then the finger on that hand starts getting a twitch, so I go to the doctor and tell him to re-break and re-set the arm.
Personally I wouldn't do that. If the problem with your mouth becomes unbearable, or it interfering with my ability to work, eat, talk, sleep, etc. then I'd suggest trying an ENT doctor. This could possibly be a sinus issue, and not a dental issue at all, and have absolutely no relation to your previous problems.
As you've written this, it sounds to me like the dentist is saying:
You had surgery. It was successful.
Months later, you experienced some new problem, that has nothing to do with the surgery.
Neither this dentist, or a variety of specialists, are able to identify this mystery problem.
You are asking for more of the same surgery you had before. Your logic is that this will fix the problem, as though the problem existed as a side-effect of the previous surgery (even though the problem occurred months after it had healed successfully).
My thoughts:
I compare this to setting a broken arm. They take the cast off, everything's fine for a couple of weeks, all healed, clean bill of health. And then the finger on that hand starts getting a twitch, so I go to the doctor and tell him to re-break and re-set the arm.
Personally I wouldn't do that. If the problem with your mouth becomes unbearable, or it interfering with my ability to work, eat, talk, sleep, etc. then I'd suggest trying an ENT doctor. This could possibly be a sinus issue, and not a dental issue at all, and have absolutely no relation to your previous problems.
I appreciate your analysis and thoughtful response. However, that's not entirely accurate. In the 3 months following the operation I was healing from an invasive surgical procedure, so my mouth never felt "normal" following the procedure.
It's very obvious to me that after slicing up the nerves in that area of my gums the nerves have become damaged.
I'll look into an ENT doctor but I'm not sure what my sinus would have to do with a dull aching pressure in my lower front gums following a surgery in that area. Can you elaborate?
How is it, that it is so obvious to you what the problem is - and several licensed medical professionals trained in the diagnosis of these types of problems, have been unable to come to the same conclusion? Your post suggests that you believe you know more than not just one doctor - which could very well be possible - but several doctors - which I find highly unlikely.
How is it, that it is so obvious to you what the problem is - and several licensed medical professionals trained in the diagnosis of these types of problems, have been unable to come to the same conclusion? Your post suggests that you believe you know more than not just one doctor - which could very well be possible - but several doctors - which I find highly unlikely.
Here's how I see it: It's obvious to me that I have nerve damage caused by the frenectomy and all of the professionals I've seen have not been able to confirm this, or provide a solution.
Neuropathy isn't easy to diagnose or treat. There's not really any way to measure it (that I'm aware of) and besides pain medication, the only real way to force nerves to heal is to do a surgical revision (that I'm aware of).
Definitely not a good situation to be in :/. I'm never comfortable throughout the day as I constantly have the pain.
I'm still actively researching and seeking answers though.
Can you please elaborate on your thinking behind the ENT suggestion? It's interesting to me but I don't understand the correlation.
How is it, that it is so obvious to you what the problem is - and several licensed medical professionals trained in the diagnosis of these types of problems, have been unable to come to the same conclusion? Your post suggests that you believe you know more than not just one doctor - which could very well be possible - but several doctors - which I find highly unlikely.
Listen to AnonChick, she is spot on as usual. I am a doctor and routinely have people come to my office with vague neurogenic symptoms and they list all 13 doctors they have already seen. They are ALWAYS shocked when I tell them "the more doctors you see, the less likely you are to find a fix." Patients come to me because I am highly specialized in my field, but this also means that I know which problems can be fixed and which problems cannot be fixed. When someone has already seen a bunch of doctors who could not provide a solution, who am I to think I am smarter than they are? I get straight to the point and tell these patients there is no cure for their problem....if there was then I would be selling it to them. Some even get mad as if I don't want to help them. Next....
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