"Open-minded", but not really. Beyond Sax Discrimination... (Denver: renters, credit)

[SaxnFlutman]

I am a longtime professional musician, and as must be obvious, play saxophone & flute. I've recently arrived in Denver (used to live in Boulder/Ft. Collins many years ago), and have been looking for a room (or two) in a house, to share, usually a process that takes maybe a week, and looking into a couple or three places, and then moving in.

Well, not the case, not at all, this time. I understand some people may be wary of renting to a "musician", due to stereotypes, etc., but little did I realize that in so progressive & "open-minded" a place, I would face discrimination, on par with being black in the South, in the 50s/60s.

In the last two months or so, I have responded to nearly 200 different listings. Other than a number of them being scams (usually attempts to get people over to "freecreditreport.com"), I have received only a small handful of responses. Of those, a number never responded to a follow-up reply, some left phone numbers but never answered, and I actually have looked at about four, no, make that five, total. Five out of 200, not so good, very time consuming, very frustrating, it's thrown me way off my timetable of getting other things done, and slowed my entry into life in Denver, as well as I'm sure cost me work that would've come had I not spent so much time spinning my wheels.

And what was the cause of this discrimination, what about me caused over 90% of people to completely ignore my responses, & made even one person, who at the end of very long, & friendly phone call, where he expressed eagerness at my coming by the next day to see the house, do a complete 180, ignoring my calls the following day, and then changing the wording in his ad, just so he'd not face someone else as unfit to share his place? The problem with me is that I've lived..... and for more than 30 years.

So, I read listings where the talk is of how they are open to anyone, no matter race, nationality, sexual preference, etc, to apply, yet cannot see their glaring contradiction, as they then add an age-range requirement! Now, I'm used to be around all kinds of people, many much younger, & I may play music with them, just be friends, or date them, & no one gives it a second thought. It's too bad too, cause I've always benefitted from my relationships with older, more experienced friends or associates. I learned things from them I would never have had I only hung with people my own age. Oh well, I may have finally found someone (a younger person, too) who doesn't give a damn what date is on my driver's license, and allow me to move in, so hopefully this odd, perplexing & at times, infuriating chapter in my life will be over....

‎"Sometimes, I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It merely astonishes me. How can any deny themselves the pleasure of my company? Its beyond me." . . - Zora Neal Hurston

[HobbsResident]

Where are you looking? Are you sure it's your age? I personally wouldn't want to rent to someone who didn't have steady employment.

[SaxnFlutman]

Originally Posted by HobbsResident

Where are you looking? Are you sure it's your age? I personally wouldn't want to rent to someone who didn't have steady employment.

What do you mean "where am I looking"? I'm looking all around the Denver Metro area, those who didn't respond never even asked about employment, plus many listings clearly state an age range, or the ages of those already living there, and say they want someone their age. This is not a subtle thing at all, nor is this all in my head...

[HobbsResident]

Back down puppy, no offense meant. Denver 'metro' is a large area and I don't recall you even mentioning that in your 1st post. Might help readers if they knew a more specific location. Or maybe you were just venting, not asking for help finding a place to live or in understanding why you haven't been succesful. I'm not sure.

Maybe the kids don't want to hang out with an older person? I guess that's been made pretty obvious to you, sorry. Perhaps you're reaching an age where potential young renters don't feel they'll have much in common with you.

It's a fairly well known fact that college-age and 20-something's don't normally want to hang out with older folks, no matter how cool or young you may feel. Nor are most of them mature enough to find value in the seasoned experience and/or wisdom of those older than themselves.

+ if you're past 30 and the kids are 18 or 20, then in their eyes you're pretty close to being their parents ages.

Or you could simply be looking in the wrong area.

Just tossing out possibilities, maybe they'll help you feel better, maybe not, but good luck with the housing situation.

[SaxnFlutman]

1. Telling me that you wouldn't rent to someone without employment obviously implies you assume I don't work.

2. This topic is listed in the DENVER category, so no, I didn't feel I needed to be redundant, and say I was talking about Denver.

3. That your opinion about what most 20-somethings want or don't want to do, is just that. Obviously, that is a prevalent attitude here, as I've not seen that same prejudice in other places. (and I'm not speaking of 18-22 yr. old students, altho when I was 18, at UCLA, we had older people living with us, and hanging w/us, as we at least didn't practice arbitrary exclusionary practices.

4. You fail to see my point here. I'm not looking for an answer, for a rationale to explain this away, I'm fully aware of what attitudes can be in play. The point is that I have no problem whatsoever with anyone choosing not to want to live with, hire, associate with, or whatever, when they have an actual reason for it. If I had met them, so they could see who I am, and then they (or I) decided it wasn't a good match, then hey, c'est la vie, we have the right to choose who we wish to be around. However, to exclude simply by an external factor, is doing exactly what many of them even specifically stated they do NOT do, which is to discriminate, and it's no more right to use age, as it is color, nationality, religion, etc. There is not one of those categories in which every person is the same, therefore they may have far more in common with me, than many much younger, or even their own age.

That said, I would of course, not want to live with some really immature, alcoholic slobs, but I would never rule out younger people, simply because they might just be. And by the way, most of those I responded to, described themselves as "professionals", so I now must wonder what exactly that term means, here in Denver.

And I'm not just venting, nor asking for help in finding a place. This is a discussion board, & location specific. This is, to me, a bit of a troubling issue, as it speaks to a moral blindspot, especially since many pride themselves on how open-minded, and yes, "non-judgmental" they are, in their search for a roommate. Since I've not run into this dilemma ever before, in other cities, I wanted to bring it to light, and I do have my own ideas about it, primarily, it may have much to do with this environment's lack of actual diversity, so while these young people talk about it, they really have no experience living it. I know this isn't being nervous about flying with "visibly Muslim" passengers, but it may be worth discussing, nonetheless.

[HobbsResident]

Well I've tried to be nice and helpful towards you in spite of your judgmental attitude towards me, but I now understand that age has nothing to do with why you haven't found a room to rent. And since age isn't the issue then you are wrong about your imaginary "moral blind spot" and that means there's nothing to discuss here. Good day old man.

[vegaspilgrim]

Why don't you take a closer look at craiglist's own housing policy, which is a summarized version of the FHA:

craiglist | about > FHA

What are the laws for roommates and shared housing? [top]

Federal Fair Housing laws for roommates and shared housing have two components: advertising and decision-making.

Advertising: Federal Fair Housing laws prohibit discriminatory advertising in all housing, regardless of how large or small the property. However, as discussed below, advertising which expresses a preference based upon sex is allowed in shared living situations where tenants will share a bathroom, kitchen, or other common area.

Decision-making: Although the prohibition on discriminatory advertising applies to roommate and shared housing situations, federal Fair Housing laws do not cover the basis of decisions made by landowners who own less than four units, and live in one of the units. This means that in a situation in which a landlord owns less than four rental units, and lives in one of the units, it is legal for the owner to discriminate in the selection process based on the aforementioned categories, but it is illegal for that owner to advertise or otherwise make a statement expressing that discriminatory preference.

Maybe the roommate thing just isn't for you, maybe you should just get your own place?

[zmarko]

Wow.

[SaxnFlutman]

Originally Posted by HobbsResident

Well I've tried to be nice and helpful towards you in spite of your judgmental attitude towards me, but I now understand that age has nothing to do with why you haven't found a room to rent. And since age isn't the issue then you are wrong about your imaginary "moral blind spot" and that means there's nothing to discuss here. Good day old man.

Interesting you keep slinging mud my way, at the same time you insist it's me doing it, "I'm the judgmental one", not you, ok...... And thanks for being so "nice & helpful".

"The best political, social and spiritual work we can do is to withdraw the projection of our shadow onto others.” – Carl Jung

[SaxnFlutman]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Why don't you take a closer look at craiglist's own housing policy, which is a summarized version of the FHA:

craiglist | about > FHA


Maybe the roommate thing just isn't for you, maybe you should just get your own place?

Thanks for posting the Craigslist & Federal policies, it's apparent that many of those I've encountered are guilty of violating both, since in a number of cases those renting the rooms are not the landlords, but simply tenants sub-contracting out space. I'm not about to attempt to haul anyone to court, etc., over this, I would just like to let those doing this see their own myopia. I even think the flippant attitude of Hobbs, or even your response that maybe sharing "just isn't for me" is side-stepping the issue, and not grasping the very real discriminatory issue underlying this.

If you were to substitute "no blacks" for "no one over 30", I think it would become more apparent. Again, I am not at all saying that people must allow anyone to move into their place, only that they at least allow a proper vetting. A person's age does not absolutely determine their personality, character, or whether they have shared interests, in the very same way that one's race doesn't....

Would you rationalize away their objections, or simply advise a black person to "get their own place instead"? Perhaps try another part of town, etc.....?