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If the light rail line to the DIA airport comes into Union Station, it should be a huge success.....and will benefit other hotels in the immediate area, like the historic Old Oxford Hotel a block from Union Station....
Don't mean to nitpick, but it will be commuter rail, not light rail.
The question I'd have is, would you be willing to walk about a quarter mile just to get to the train platform. Wait as long as 15 min. for the train to DIA, while exposed to the elements. The hot sun in summer, or the cold wind in winter. Ride the train for 35 min. Get off and walk another quarter mile just to get to the airline's check in counter?
I don't know about you, but I can't imagine the type of clientele who would stay at the Oxford, being willing to do that. I'm pretty sure that those the of people would rent a car or take a taxi. So I find it hard to believe that this train as designed would help the hotels much.
Don't mean to nitpick, but it will be commuter rail, not light rail.
The question I'd have is, would you be willing to walk about a quarter mile just to get to the train platform. Wait as long as 15 min. for the train to DIA, while exposed to the elements. The hot sun in summer, or the cold wind in winter. Ride the train for 35 min. Get off and walk another quarter mile just to get to the airline's check in counter?
I don't know about you, but I can't imagine the type of clientele who would stay at the Oxford, being willing to do that. I'm pretty sure that those the of people would rent a car or take a taxi. So I find it hard to believe that this train as designed would help the hotels much.
Again, the airport line is not 0.18 miles away at the light rail station, it's right at the station, so there's no "quarter mile" walk as you're indicating. Also, there's no need to wait outside on one of the rare days that would warrant it - just wait inside (either in Union Station or inside the Wewatta Pavilion).
And yes, people (including type of clientele who would stay at the Oxford) will be more than willing to do that. They'd even be willing to do so in your fictional scenario where they have to walk an extra 970 feet and then must wait (somewhat) outside.
This is truly hilarious. Stupidest project anywhere? Corrupt leaders prevent people from going back to the travel mode of choice two generations ago? Man this stuff is funny. I'm sure next you'll tell us to prepare for life without the internet again right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover
The whole redevelopment of the area around Union Station in Denver will come to be remembered one of the stupidest, most irresponsible projects undertaken in any major city--but not for the reasons that people think. Denver, like the rest of the US, is going to desperately need a viable intercity rail transportation network to economically survive what lies ahead for this country, and the redevelopment around Union Station has effectively killed that opportunity. The death blow came a few years ago, when the through rail access to Union Station was cut off to the south by redevelopment. The track configuration that remains to access Union Station is horribly inefficient, and can barely accommodate the twice-daily Amtrak California Zephyr trains that call there. It would be like building an airport far out of town that is very inconvenient for travelers to use--wait a minute, Denver did that, too. There can be no question that Colorado's transportation "leaders"--from the city level to the state--have to be the most clueless, corrupt, idiotic morons that have ever walked the earth. They only know how to build roads and sprawl--and a good part of the time they can't even do that right.
Beautiful as Union Station could be, and historically significant as it is, the redevelopment that has already occurred around it essentially makes it functionally useless for a transportation hub--just as the whole Denver metro area is going to become functionally useless when it comes to transportation when we no longer can afford to be the automobile/truck/airplane-centered society that we are today. When that day comes--and it is going to come--Colorado and its metro areas are not going to be worth a s*** economically. I'm sure glad I'm not invested in the metro area--it's not going to be worth much.
The whole redevelopment of the area around Union Station in Denver will come to be remembered one of the stupidest, most irresponsible projects undertaken in any major city--but not for the reasons that people think. Denver, like the rest of the US, is going to desperately need a viable intercity rail transportation network to economically survive what lies ahead for this country, and the redevelopment around Union Station has effectively killed that opportunity. The death blow came a few years ago, when the through rail access to Union Station was cut off to the south by redevelopment. The track configuration that remains to access Union Station is horribly inefficient, and can barely accommodate the twice-daily Amtrak California Zephyr trains that call there. It would be like building an airport far out of town that is very inconvenient for travelers to use--wait a minute, Denver did that, too. There can be no question that Colorado's transportation "leaders"--from the city level to the state--have to be the most clueless, corrupt, idiotic morons that have ever walked the earth. They only know how to build roads and sprawl--and a good part of the time they can't even do that right.
Beautiful as Union Station could be, and historically significant as it is, the redevelopment that has already occurred around it essentially makes it functionally useless for a transportation hub--just as the whole Denver metro area is going to become functionally useless when it comes to transportation when we no longer can afford to be the automobile/truck/airplane-centered society that we are today. When that day comes--and it is going to come--Colorado and its metro areas are not going to be worth a s*** economically. I'm sure glad I'm not invested in the metro area--it's not going to be worth much.
I think your DIA comments are just revisionist talk, that has been proved wrong about the idea, that it is too far out. We have all heard this chatter before and a previous generation had to listen to the complains about it being too far out--for the old Stapleton airport when it was constructed.
The airport is located where it was deemed necessary to serve travel in the future and some of the technology is yet to be envisioned. We had to move it away from residential areas but those ideas have been discussed and there is no need for anyone to get you to believe it, because your thoughts are not relevant. In addition the airport many well serve as a transportation hub, with multiple means of travel and some of that may mean high speed intercity rail which would connect with air travel.
Local services of a city and a region are best served by commuter rail and light rail which would connect to the larger transportation hub of the airport having air, high speed rail and perhaps even space travel. We now have the land to implement these future ideas. That is the ideas, among many, that are presented by some transportation planners and experts for the future. In addition, it is believed, by some, it is best to move some commercial freight rail services east of Denver and that would fit well with high speed passenger rail transit, as the support for these services are interdependent. After listened to many experts over the years, I think you pretend knowledge about rail transit, more than you know.
You ideas on Union Station is just obtuse critical ramblings. It is very viable thought out plan and will serve as the hub of commuter and light rail. It was worked out over many meetings with experts, over many years.
You had your opportunities to give your thoughts in those many years of the planning. Did you, or did you sit back and let us go forward without the advantages of your acute expert advice. After all you have told us, repeatedly, in all your posts, with dropping names, about all the important people you know in this State--well Mr. Native use your big influence to change what you do not like. Complaining, posturing and primping before an unknown audience on an informal internet forum, is not the place important people with real professional contacts, like yourself, get projects moving and work done. So, do not waste your talents and time on us--do some good.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 12-20-2011 at 01:54 AM..
Originally Posted by KaaBoom
Don't mean to nitpick, but it will be commuter rail, not light rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33
Again, the airport line is not 0.18 miles away at the light rail station, it's right at the station, so there's no "quarter mile" walk as you're indicating.
Dude, I just said it is commuter rail, not light rail. It's difficult to have a dialog with you if you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Hint: the difference between commuter rail and light rail is important.
And yes the walk from the train station to the terminal will be at least a quarter mile. Look at the diagram for the station below. Look where the train platforms are. What you see beyond the station is the planed airport hotel, and way, way, way in the background you see the DIA terminal.
The plans are for riders to get off the train. Walk who knows how far to the escalators. Then go up the escalator, and walk across a large plaza under the hotel. Out the other side of the hotel, and then walk some distance to the terminal doors.
The bottom picture shows how it is done in other cities. Where you just walk out of the train station and directly into the airport terminal.
I don't mind the nitpicking, as the terms really are quite specific, but most of us only care that's there's a "rail" line of some sort between downtown Denver and DIA. People have been fighting for decades to link Dulles Airport (which I lived near for 30 years) to downtown DC, i.e., the $5 subway fare is far better than the $50 taxi fare, and a whole lot nicer of a 25-mile trip. They finally got the DC Metro into National Airport and will someday get a line into Dulles. Too late for me though, we left that gridlocked area as soon as we could for the non-congested confines of Colo Spgs. My plea for such a line was published in the Washington Post back in the early 1980's, but I can't wait 30+ years for them to do what's right while clobbering the auto/oil lobbies into submission. The other airport in that region, BWI, does have a rail line into downtown Baltimore, but the city lacks any form of a major system to really generate usage...
Meanwhile, more on topic, it would be nice to not have a quarter mile walk at each end of the DIA line (or whatever it's called), but if that is the best that we can get, given the constraints of cost and other considerations, then so be it. When I worked in the Pentagon, we had a DC Metro stop that was practically under the building, but it was still a quarter mile walk to my office chair, with a stop along the way for a cornbread muffin at the bakery....
We've stayed at the historic Old Oxford Hotel in LoDo before, and would do it again if we spent nights in the area.
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I don't mind the nitpicking, as the terms really are quite specific, but most of us only care that's there's a "rail" line of some sort between downtown Denver and DIA. People have been fighting for decades to link Dulles Airport (which I lived near for 30 years) to downtown DC, i.e., the $5 subway fare is far better than the $50 taxi fare, and a whole lot nicer of a 25-mile trip. They finally got the DC Metro into National Airport and will someday get a line into Dulles. Too late for me though, we left that gridlocked area as soon as we could for the non-congested confines of Colo Spgs. My plea for such a line was published in the Washington Post back in the early 1980's, but I can't wait 30+ years for them to do what's right while clobbering the auto/oil lobbies into submission. The other airport in that region, BWI, does have a rail line into downtown Baltimore, but the city lacks any form of a major system to really generate usage...
Meanwhile, more on topic, it would be nice to not have a quarter mile walk at each end of the DIA line (or whatever it's called), but if that is the best that we can get, given the constraints of cost and other considerations, then so be it. When I worked in the Pentagon, we had a DC Metro stop that was practically under the building, but it was still a quarter mile walk to my office chair, with a stop along the way for a cornbread muffin at the bakery....
We've stayed at the historic Old Oxford Hotel in LoDo before, and would do it again if we spent nights in the area.
These are points I am trying to make. We have to do something with what we have and make decisions. The hardest part of all these projects is to begin, and we must begin.
I am certainly no expert on any public transit issue but I had an interest over the many decades I have been here. I have been to numerous meetings and read much on all the lines, all the projects and failed voter initiatives. I involved myself in some specific meetings and committees, as a volunteer and by invitation, for discussions and input on the line where I am a stakeholder. I met many engineers, consultants and planners--they helped me learn much.
What I have seen is that RTD has listened to input from the public, businesses and many professionals. There are disagreements; there are individual agendas; there are complicated financial restrictions; there are many government entities and protected kingdoms; there are egos; there are complicated engineering issues; there are legal issues; there is obvious greed, but there is also much concern for the public good...There is much to be resolved and brought together...
Yet, we have seen it come together often by RTD in the incremental build out of Public Transit over many years with many completed projects. We continue to move on and we Coloradans are succeeding with the help of the Federal government and their resolve to try get public transit moving in this country. We will do what we have to do; we will make mistakes; we will solve our mistakes and we will make more mistakes but we will move the projects forward.
[quote=KaaBoom;22195507]Dude, I just said it is commuter rail, not light rail. It's difficult to have a dialog with you if you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Hint: the difference between commuter rail and light rail is important... //QUOTE]
I am going to give you some big advice. The word "Dude" is not used as an address or greeting in professional communication, or even a proper salutation to others where social norms of respect are required and expected. It is very offensive to many people of many generations, who will be your partners in work associations. It belies and indicates a person of relative inexperience or lower societal status, who lives the life of the media generated group thought. Writing that way and communicating with street terms will get you ignored in professional meetings, and will typecast you into a category of lesser intelligence--which we would not want to do that, do we.
I never forgot in a meeting that I was an observer with paid consultants who where working with a government agency. This young, newly minted college graduated planner was part of the representative group of the consultants. He turned and addressed a senior government administrator as "Dude". You immediately saw the government official was annoyed and his fellow consultants winced. The next meeting he was not there, and I heard he was soon unemployed.
Difference in Commuter Rail and Light Rail are many and I would challenge you to really learn the difference, the applications and the need in a mixed transportation system. You have not shown that you know the difference, but only to preach and say the difference.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 12-20-2011 at 12:13 PM..
RTD board goes ahead with hotel plan for Union Station
By Margaret Jackson
The Denver Post
The RTD board tonight approved moving forward with the staff recommendation to redevelop Denver Union Station as a hotel.
The approval came on a 14-0 vote, with director Bill James abstaining, citing a professional conflict of interest. He works for a commercial and residential real estate appraisal firm.
...Ever since former Mayor Pena and his cohorts tried unsuccessfully to get Amtrak out of the station, so they could tear most of it down to build the Convention Center there. Now RTD has just handed it over to them to do what they please.
You knew nothing about the convention center proposal at Union Station, many years ago, until you saw my little mention of it in a previous post. Of course, you drew your conclusions about something you knew nothing about. It was never decided to tear "most of it down". The Convention Center proposal was to build it above, and around Union Station which would have acted as front piece for the project. Union Station, then and now, is a protected historical property.
Of course you do not live here, but lived here years ago and time being pushed in a stroller does not count for intelligent observations.
Livecontent
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We have a winner for blowhard post of the year!
Dude, I just said it is commuter rail, not light rail. It's difficult to have a dialog with you if you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Hint: the difference between commuter rail and light rail is important. 
