Do Stapleton's wide streets make traffic more dangerous?

[Bradburn1]

The size of Stapleton and some of its streets was one of the reasons we chose to buy in Bradburn Village. They are both new urbanist neighborhoods, but Stapleton is 4,000 acres and Bradburn is 125. We thought pulling new urbanism off in 4,000 acres would be difficult, and that has turned out to be the case, since so many compromises had to be made.

For example, we wanted to be able to safely and easily walk to retail/restaurants in 5-10 minutes, and you can't do that in most of Stapleton. You can walk/bike safely in most parts, especially the inner gridded neighborhood streets, but you can't get to much of interest on foot in 10 minutes simply because of its size. In Bradburn I can get to so many things on foot, including the new (opens in Dec) Whole Foods store--which is a five minute walk out my front door. As I sit on my porch they are banging away at it right now. There isn't a home in here that won't be a 5-15 minute walk away from WF and our other restaurants and shops.

I visited Conservatory Green last summer and I liked it, but its retail is Northfield Stapleton, which is only accessible on foot from Conservatory Green across 49th and Northfield Blvd which is a 6 lane road with fast traffic. Then you have to cross a rather barren section of road adjacent to the huge parking lots fringing the stores to get to them. I wouldn't walk that walk--it didn't look safe at all, especially with little kids. I think most people there will look at what they have to cross to get to the retail and get in their car. They will be reducing their car miles though because it's closer, but it's not very accessible to the pedestrian which are two different things.

However, I still think Stapleton is a big improvement over standard large lot suburban development, even if it has some issues. I think it's much nicer looking for one.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by Bradburn1

The size of Stapleton and some of its streets was one of the reasons we chose to buy in Bradburn Village. They are both new urbanist neighborhoods, but Stapleton is 4,000 acres and Bradburn is 125. We thought pulling new urbanism off in 4,000 acres would be difficult, and that has turned out to be the case, since so many compromises had to be made.

For example, we wanted to be able to safely and easily walk to retail/restaurants in 5-10 minutes, and you can't do that in most of Stapleton. You can walk/bike safely in most parts, especially the inner gridded neighborhood streets, but you can't get to much of interest on foot in 10 minutes simply because of its size. In Bradburn I can get to so many things on foot, including the new (opens in Dec) Whole Foods store--which is a five minute walk out my front door. As I sit on my porch they are banging away at it right now. There isn't a home in here that won't be a 5-15 minute walk away from WF and our other restaurants and shops.

I visited Conservatory Green last summer and I liked it, but its retail is Northfield Stapleton, which is only accessible on foot from Conservatory Green across 49th and Northfield Blvd which is a 6 lane road with fast traffic. Then you have to cross a rather barren section of road adjacent to the huge parking lots fringing the stores to get to them. I wouldn't walk that walk--it didn't look safe at all, especially with little kids. I think most people there will look at what they have to cross to get to the retail and get in their car. They will be reducing their car miles though because it's closer, but it's not very accessible to the pedestrian which are two different things.

However, I still think Stapleton is a big improvement over standard large lot suburban development, even if it has some issues. I think it's much nicer looking for one.

Bradburn has an advantage in that it's surrounded by nice neighborhoods, so it's probably easier to put nicer retail there. In some ways, I think they're almost afraid to mix retail with residential in Stapleton. Mainly in the eastern end, but King Soopers is supposedly ready to build a new store on the east end (in the hole where a town center is to be built.)

But I still don't understand the complaint about traffic on MLK and CP Blvd. How else are you going to get through Stapleton?? If you live in the middle, you need something other than 25 mph residential streets. MLK through Park Hill is no different than through Stapleton.

[Bradburn1]

Originally Posted by denverian

Bradburn has an advantage in that it's surrounded by nice neighborhoods, so it's probably easier to put nicer retail there. In some ways, I think they're almost afraid to mix retail with residential in Stapleton. Mainly in the eastern end, but King Soopers is supposedly ready to build a new store on the east end (in the hole where a town center is to be built.)

Good point, there's no doubt retailers do demo studies on the surrounding neighborhoods when deciding where to locate. Banks do too and they are all risk averse, and new urbanism doesn't have the tried and true returns of big box and strip malls. Getting financed can be a challenge if you want to open in a new urbanist neighborhood I've been told. A new urbanist neighborhood surrounded by historically lower income neighborhoods faces a double hurdle.

I've looked at the plans for the Eastbridge Town Center and can see why people don't like it--the parking lot for Soopers is enormous. In Bradburn the WF has a parking lot, but it's much, much smaller. Of course, WF is only 35,000 sq feet, I'd imagine the Eastbridge Soopers is as least twice that size. Plus the city may require that much parking. Sure does make a difference though in walkability as well as looks.

Yeah, not sure I get the criticism about MLK either, you have to get from one side of Stapleton to the other somehow. It's not like the neighborhood streets in Stapleton are super wide, as they most certainly are in the standard suburban neighborhoods that are around Bradburn.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by denverian

Bradburn has an advantage in that it's surrounded by nice neighborhoods, so it's probably easier to put nicer retail there. In some ways, I think they're almost afraid to mix retail with residential in Stapleton. Mainly in the eastern end, but King Soopers is supposedly ready to build a new store on the east end (in the hole where a town center is to be built.)

But I still don't understand the complaint about traffic on MLK and CP Blvd. How else are you going to get through Stapleton?? If you live in the middle, you need something other than 25 mph residential streets. MLK through Park Hill is no different than through Stapleton.

The problem with the east side of Stapleton and retail is that there is zero residential to the northeast, just warehouses and a jail. Grocers look at that and see a big portion of the radius for a possible store being a big zero in terms of possible customers.

I do think that the site plan for the Eastbridge Town Center needs some serious tweaking. There are a number of ways that the grocery store parking can be reconfigured so that the parking lot doesn't appear as obtrusive.

[sbelvedere]

My criticism regarding MLK and CP is that they should have planned for three cross streets, 26, MLK, and 35, all 35 mph with bike lanes and sidewalks. Otherwise you get a distinctly suburban thoroughfare. The whole point of urban to me is that you have to forgo such thoroughfares or end up in a car centric mode.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by davebarnes

YES
Street Design — Local Government Commission
Narrow Streets Slow Traffic - Sprawl - Sierra Club

Interesting links. However, it does occur to me that "correlation does not equal causation". For example, it is entirely possible that narrower streets have fewer accidents b/c they have less traffic for several reasons. Fewer people live on these streets, therefore fewer people have a reason to be on them, and people don't like to drive on narrow streets.

[philberf]

I think one if the major "failures" of Stapleton's version of new urbanism is the ratio and distribution of retail to residential. As mentioned above by bradburn1, most homes don't really give you that much walk ability to retail. Pretty good to parks and pools though. And I say that after 3 years and 2 homes in Stapleton.

[Katarina Witt]

^OTOH, I feel that Stapleton is more of a New Urbanist development than places which are more the size of typical subdivisions.

It may be that on a large scale, New Urbanism is hard to pull off.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

The problem with the east side of Stapleton and retail is that there is zero residential to the northeast, just warehouses and a jail. Grocers look at that and see a big portion of the radius for a possible store being a big zero in terms of possible customers.

I do think that the site plan for the Eastbridge Town Center needs some serious tweaking. There are a number of ways that the grocery store parking can be reconfigured so that the parking lot doesn't appear as obtrusive.

Yeah, I agree. I'm sure they're looking at all the neighborhods to the south of Eastbridge as potential customers since there's no grocery store down there. I think that's probably why something like a Sprouts wouldn't build in Eastbridge, because the neighborhoods to the south aren't really in their demographics.

Urban grocery stores are usually "crammed in" to a neighborhood. I'm thinking of the Safeway and King Soopers on Cap. Hill. They do create traffic and parking issues, but it is what it is. Hopefully they do something a little different with the configuration.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Interesting links. However, it does occur to me that "correlation does not equal causation". For example, it is entirely possible that narrower streets have fewer accidents b/c they have less traffic for several reasons. Fewer people live on these streets, therefore fewer people have a reason to be on them, and people don't like to drive on narrow streets.

The only streets I can think of in Denver that are residential and more narrow than Stapleton's would be on Capitol Hill. They can be quite difficult for two cars to pass. But Stapleton's aren't much wider than that.