NOVA -> Colorado, software developer, seeking advice and input. (Denver: sales, apartment)

[Programmering]

I am considering moving from Northern Virginia to Colorado. I've desired to leave this area for years, despite living here my entire life. I wanted more job experience and additional savings before I felt I could move so far comfortably.

What I dislike about NoVA:
1. Absolutely horrendous traffic. I really cannot overstate this. My current commute takes over 90 minutes (despite being only 35 miles.) I could move closer to work, but that would come with financial drawbacks, which leads to point #2.
2. This area is very expensive, particularly for housing. A studio apartment close to my workplace runs about $1500/mo. If I were to live in the District (which I would want to, if I were to stay here,) a similar apartment would be about $1800 (with off-street parking.) Almost 1/2 of my after-tax income would be consumed by rent and parking fees, to live in a place that I don't particularly care for.
3. Generally up-tight, stressed, and extremely busy populace. People are career-oriented. The average commute here is about one hour, so maybe they are simply worn out from all the traffic.
4. The State as a whole strikes me as somewhat socially conservative and authoritarian. While I hold nothing personal against people I disagree with, and rarely share my political opinions, I'd prefer to be around like-minded people once in a while.

The main draws to NOVA are the excellent schools, safe neighborhoods, and govt jobs. I do not have kids (nor do I plan to anytime soon,) and perhaps because of that I do not particularly worry about crime. Being a college educated developer w/ some experience, I believe I can find a job in nearly any metropolitan area that pays well enough to live in a safe area.

What I like about Colorado (as an outsider looking in, who has only been out West a few times)
1. Affordability, at least, when compared to NOVA. I could rent a much nicer apartment for far less money. I could even rent a house for the same price as an apartment here.
2. Less time in traffic -> less stress in the morning and evening. Spending so much time in traffic is ruining my quality of life.
3. More relaxed people, better work-life balance, less speedy "rat race."
4. I understand there is a tech hub in Boulder, so I should be able to find a job I like.
5. More libertarian, less Bible Belt-ish.

If you've executed a similar move, what was your experience? Are my points above flawed in any way? What would a transplant from NOVA likely be unprepared for, or overlook? How much savings should one have before making such a move?

I'm willing to take a slight decrease in pay. How well are devs compensated in the Boulder area? If anyone works in software development or IT, I'd love to hear your opinion of the work environment compared to other places.

Finally, how do Boulder, Denver, and Fort Collins compare? Any places I should avoid, or check out?

A bit about me: mid-twenties, single male with a CS degree, working as a developer. Thanks for any input! I've read over some other threads, but they did not address all of my questions.

[Mike from back east]

Came here in 2005 after retiring and after 30+ years in Fairfax County, mostly Chantilly.

Right now prices in Denver / Boulder will rival prices in NOVA, wasn't that way in 2005.

Lots of tech in Boulder, also a ton of it in the Denver Tech Center (DTC) about 10 miles south of downtown Denver. Search on the term DTC to find tons of info we already have on file here.

The bible belt vibe is nowhere as strong as back in much of VA and the south, though religion here is alive and well.

Yes it is more live and let live here, more laid back, friendlier.

Traffic can suck here, but nothing like I-66, I-95, etc. Still, you want to live near work to maximize enjoyment of your time.

Denver has all 5 pro sports and they're not that hard to access. Lots of culture, museums, shows, music, arts.

Dry air can be an initial shock until you acclimate, few bugs, no dog days of August.

I'm not sure if any school district here can compare to Fairfax County schools, some districts are excellent, some are so so.
Two of the best ones are Boulder Valley School District (BVSD) and Cherry Creek School District (CCSD); both terms are searchable.
You don't have to live in pricey Boulder to get kids into BVSD, nearby areas can be more affordable.

Check rental prices on padmapper.com as the market here is very tight and prices are rising, which might be the biggest shock of all.

[Programmering]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Lots of tech in Boulder, also a ton of it in the Denver Tech Center (DTC) about 10 miles south of downtown Denver. Search on the term DTC to find tons of info we already have on file here.

Sounds good. I don't believe I would have trouble finding employment. I have in-demand skills, and get contacted by tech recruiters frequently. I would like to have a job lined up before moving, but the sheer distance may present a challenge. I would have to fly over the weekend for an in-person interview, so hopefully they would be content with a phone conversation, or video chat...

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

The bible belt vibe is nowhere as strong as back in much of VA and the south, though religion here is alive and well.
Yes it is more live and let live here, more laid back, friendlier.

This is important to me. I know that temperaments vary more between individual personalities than regions, but NOVA has a certain "hurriedness" to it that quickly becomes tiring unless you are a Type-A individual. There's a feeling of urgency and competitiveness at all times. Conversations tend to revolve around work. The radio is interrupted by constant reports on the traffic, which is terrible without exception! The parents living here strike me as the over-protective, helicopter variety.

I've had some negative experiences with people here that left me simply bewildered, and I don't know what to attribute it to other than stress and nosiness.

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Traffic can suck here, but nothing like I-66, I-95, etc. Still, you want to live near work to maximize enjoyment of your time.

This is perhaps the most important reason for moving. Right now, I commute on I-66 some days, and I-95 others. I check the traffic for each route before I leave. Both of these routes are always bogged down with bumper-to-bumper traffic during rush hour.

I spend approximately 15 hours per week commuting. This is basically a full "day" of my week spent in the car, in stop-and-go traffic. Besides the sore joints from sitting so long, and the monotony of it all, I'm also losing time that would otherwise be spent on personal projects, reading, sleeping, exercising, etc. So I fear all of this time in traffic is hampering my health and my development as a person.

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Dry air can be an initial shock until you acclimate, few bugs, no dog days of August.

I'm okay with dry air, but I'm somewhat concerned about the snow. Is the snow much of a problem? Is it significantly more extreme than NOVA? I am certainly not afraid to drive in snow, but this is a point that others have brought up when I mention my "escape plan."

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Check rental prices on padmapper.com as the market here is very tight and prices are rising, which might be the biggest shock of all.

Very cool website. I've checked a few entries, and while the prices were not amazingly cheap, they were still significantly lower than District prices... If I stay in this area, for a reasonably priced place, I will have to forgo all amenities like having my own washer and dryer, convenient parking, space, etc.

Thanks for your input Mike. I'd love to hear more comments!

[davebarnes]

RMIUG jobs list on Yahoo groups for job leads.
Boulder for smaller companies sw dev jobs. Live in Boulder. Pay the rental price.
DTC for larger companies sw dev. Live north of it.
Downtown Denver for all types. Live close.
Eastern Aurora for spook work. Live west of job.

[Mike from back east]

Snows here, but usually melts out quickly due to the dry air and sunshine most days. Snow is not a reason to avoid this area. Having a job first is quite smart, and renting a year to learn the area is a wise plan.

[bluescreen73]

Boulder's nice but commuting to/from there sucks, and living there is expensive. You'll put yourself in a position for more openings and opportunities if you concentrate your job search on downtown and/or the DTC.

[Suzatlarge]

When you get into the details of a job location, be sure to check out the possibility of commuting via light rail.

I don't take the train every day that I work downtown, but it's so much nicer to drive to the nearest light rail station, park, and take the train, than to make the whole round trip drive at rush hour(s). It's not necessarily quicker, but I get to spend most of the commute time sitting and relaxing on the train instead of fighting traffic. Well worth it to me. Worst case scenario is not getting a seat for some of the ride, no biggie to me. And when the traffic on I-25 is clogged and crawling, and I'm sitting on a train alongside the freeway rushing by those cars? I admit it, I smirk, because I'm not always a nice person.

I believe there are options for using light rail to get to jobs in the DTC area and Meridian office park too, not just for downtown jobs. (Shuttles connecting the light rail stations to office parks, etc.)

RTD Light Rail system info.

[step33]

Just in general I'll note that there are tech jobs all over the Denver area, not just in Boulder or even the DTC. Other places I know of with these jobs are Highlands Ranch, Lakewood (around the Fed Center, 6th-Union), Golden, of course downtown Denver, etc.

You should be able to find something with an in demand skill, and then base where you live from that on the commute and (most important to me), the lifestyle you want to lead. Start with lifestyle, then work, then location - at least that's my theory

[Gorges]

Hi Programmering! My husband and I moved out here from the DC area within the past year for a job transfer. We love it here, especially the weather, the scenery, the friendly people. We hope we like it well enough to stay once the job is over.

Just a couple of comments about your comments.

-Don't expect the COL to be that much lower. Housing costs might be a little lower, but grocery and restaurant prices often seem higher. The income tax is lower here, but you have that wicked sales tax that always amazes me when I buy something.

-Snow. Not an issue for me. Maybe it's just this winter, but so far, the winter temps and the snow have been much easier to deal with than DC's winters the past couple of years. One thing that is different is that the residential roads don't tend to get plowed, unless there is a school on the street. Also, the roads are in much worse shape here in general. Md puts a lot of money into it's roads and the contrast is striking.

-Bible Belt issues. I grew up in Va and lived in Nova for a while and I would not consider Nova to be especially conservative or in the Bible Belt. So we differ there. And I'm fairly liberal. Even though I live in the southeastern suburbs of Denver, which is supposed to be more conservative, I have never been unwillingly exposed to anything churchy. In the areas that you're considering, I doubt that will be an issue at all.

-Liberalism/conservatism, sort of. Something that has troubled me and that differs greatly from back east is the lack of racial diversity and awareness. Although we live in the burbs, our social group revolves around the arts scene in Denver, and we hang out with people from all over the metro area. I'm amazed at how many people we encounter who have never been close to anyone of a minority race. It's not so much an attempt to be negative, but it's more like, "that's not a part of my life so I don't think about it and don't need to know about it." More than one couple we met didn't want to see the movie Selma because the civil rights movement was not part of their lives and they felt like anything pro African American was being forced on them. I never experienced that attitude in all of my years living in the DC area. I am not part of a racial minority but this attitude was unexpected and is disconcerting. So far it's the one thing that might keep us from living here permanently.

-Traffic/commute. There is traffic here, too. It sounds like your nightmare commute is because of where you live and your distance from work. That could happen here as well. Once you find a job, be smart and keep your commute as short as possible.

[denver_hacker]

I've been in the software engineering biz in Denver since '99 when I moved from the SF Bay Area - no regrets, the Denver area is an awesome place to live.

Things to note:

1) The arid climate is very noticeable. Drink lots of water and give yourself a month or two to really adjust. Don't get hammered one night and run 10K the next day in your first week here.
2) Cost of housing is crazy right now. There's not enough demand for all the folks moving in. (see New wave of development poised to roll across Denver's suburban fringe - The Denver Post )
3) Along with the climate, there just aren't a lot of bodies of water here. If you're big into water sports or love lakes and/or the ocean, this isn't the place.
4) The metro landscape is high plains, meaning no trees. People have planted a lot of trees in the metro area, but the only indigenous tree in the Denver area is the Cottonwood. Even when you do get to natural forests in the foothills, they tend to be dry and not as lush as sea level forests. When I'm on either coast, or in the mid west, I'm amazed at how lush and green everything is - just different here.
5) The job market for software engineers here is sweet - lots of places to work, hiring bonuses, crazy perks, etc. In general, Boulder is the startup capital of Colorado and the further south you go, the more corporate the work, ending up with a ton of DoD work in Colorado Springs.
6) Things are *way* more religious here than in the SF Bay Area, but maybe from NoVA it's the other way 'round.
7) The snow really isn't that bad. We get more snow than Minneapolis, but our temps are higher and we get more sun, so it melts pretty quick. Plus when we get a large amount of snow, everyone freaks out and stays home.
8) The commutes here suck. There was a big 'stick your head in the sand' attitude in the 70s that if they didn't build infrastructure, people wouldn't move here. Well, they did and it's taken a while for things to catch up. The light rail system is pretty sweet if you live and work along it. The buses between Boulder and Denver are really nice - I know a lot of folks who go between the two cities daily.
9) Food/culture - is pretty good for a B-list area. I tend to think it's one of the best B-list areas around, with New York, San Francisco, LA, DC, Boston, Chicago, etc. as the A-listers. Close in Denver and Boulder have interesting things going on, while the rest of the area is generally chains.
10) People here are really outdoorsy and take health very seriously - like iron man triathlete marathon types folks abound, and people like to eat really healthy stuff.

Anyway, good luck!