Middle class shrinking in Denver metro

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

Of course. I myself used it religiously (even without myself having any religion ) during my far too few years of being single.

I have a real testimonial to share.....
Avoiding unwanted births has allowed me to become MIDDLE CLASS! My personal middle class (nor anything else for that matter ) is not shrinking!

Thank you. Imagine that! As you seem to understand, that's what I was getting at, but so many people are just deliberately obtuse. The very idea that they might actually have any degree of control over their own lives whatsoever seems to be anathema to them.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

Thank you. Imagine that! As you seem to understand, that's what I was getting at, but so many people are just deliberately obtuse. The very idea that they might actually have any degree of control over their own lives whatsoever seems to be anathema to them.

You made the assertion that it's the breakdown of the traditional family that is causing the widening gulf between rich and poor. It's really a chicken and egg question. How do prove that it's not financial circumstances that are causing people to not get married? Back in the days of unions, a guy knocked a girl up, but knew he had a decent Union job and could afford to raise a family so he got married. Nowadays, not so much.

Note the article in Fortune below. Education matters.

Also note the Business Insider article. Being born in to poverty, kids or no kids and marriage or no marriage, is a major factor in a person's ability to achieve. Opportunities are far from equal. The most important thing for someone to have in life if they want to make money is to have parents who made money. It's clear that growing up in a single parent family hurts children's earning potential, but the question is why is that happening?

Parents Determine Child Success, Income Inequality - Business Insider

For Millennials, Homeownerhip Isn't Affordable Without College Degree - Fortune

Success Starts with Wealthy Parents, Study Finds

You attacked my post for not offering any solutions, I did; Keep access to abortion safe and legal. It's not the end all, but it is important. Several economists have put the theory forward that it's a major reason that crime dropped in the 90s.

[davebarnes]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

Kansas is thatta way ---------------------------------------->>>>>>>>>

Uh, no.
Sitting here at my desk, your arrow points to Las Vegas.

[Timmyy]

Originally Posted by davebarnes

Uh, no.
Sitting here at my desk, your arrow points to Las Vegas.

Then that is where I am going. I need to get away. Oh wait... I am middle class so I can't afford it.

[Count David]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

Thank you. Imagine that! As you seem to understand, that's what I was getting at, but so many people are just deliberately obtuse. The very idea that they might actually have any degree of control over their own lives whatsoever seems to be anathema to them.

Not here!

Originally Posted by davebarnes

Uh, no.
Sitting here at my desk, your arrow points to Las Vegas.

And here on my couch, Cheyenne.

However, if you look at it a little more metaphorically, my arrow points to the right, which you can look at as ""-wing, or right as in east on a map. He CAN have his cake and eat it too.

Originally Posted by Timmyy

Then that is where I am going. I need to get away. Oh wait... I am middle class so I can't afford it.

Sure you can! You deserve it, don't you?

[Timmyy]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

Sure you can! You deserve it, don't you?

I definitely deserve it.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

You made the assertion that it's the breakdown of the traditional family that is causing the widening gulf between rich and poor..

It's not the only cause, but it's a big one.

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

It's really a chicken and egg question. How do prove that it's not financial circumstances that are causing people to not get married? Back in the days of unions, a guy knocked a girl up, but knew he had a decent Union job and could afford to raise a family so he got married. Nowadays, not so much. .

I can agree, but only to a point. I think there's a lot more to it than that. And once again, even a fair number of presumably liberal scholars are saying it's the other way around.

Scholar Kay Hymowitz, author of Marriage and Caste in America: Separate and Unequal Families in a Post-Marital Age, turns the argument around and says it's not that harsh economic conditions lead to women having children without fathers, but that the decision to have children without fathers leads to harsh, and self-perpetuating, economic conditions.

Forget Juno. Out-of-wedlock births are a national catastrophe.

Note the article in Fortune below. Education matters.

Values matter more--much more. It's a certain set of values that get you the education, that give you the impression that having a kid without being married is a very big deal, etc. See The Triple Package by Amy Chua and Jed Rubenfeld.

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

Also note the Business Insider article. Being born in to poverty, kids or no kids and marriage or no marriage, is a major factor in a person's ability to achieve. Opportunities are far from equal. The most important thing for someone to have in life if they want to make money is to have parents who made money. It's clear that growing up in a single parent family hurts children's earning potential, but the question is why is that happening?

Parents Determine Child Success, Income Inequality - Business Insider

For Millennials, Homeownerhip Isn't Affordable Without College Degree - Fortune

Success Starts with Wealthy Parents, Study Finds.

Mainstream media is full of nothing but such articles. I've read a gazillion of them. There is a grain of truth to them. We are bombarded with articles that essentially say or imply there's little to nothing people can do who are born into difficult circumstances to improve their lives. But even liberal scholars are now pointing out that simply isn't true.

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

You attacked my post for not offering any solutions, I did; Keep access to abortion safe and legal. It's not the end all, but it is important. Several economists have put the theory forward that it's a major reason that crime dropped in the 90s.

It's a very weak, reaction oriented solution. What we need are proactive solutions. That starts with values, as pointed out in the book Chua & Rubenfeld.

[randomparent]

Tiger Mom! Forgive me, but no. Just no. I'm all for bringing children into a committed and financially stable family, but I cannot embrace the tiger mom mentality. That woman strikes me as extraordinarily unpleasant.

That being said, I have to give Chua credit for her firm no sleepover stance. Sleepovers made me crazy when my children were young, and I always felt like the worst parent in the world for saying no. I recently asked my now seventeen-year-old daughter if she thought I was awful for not allowing them, and she told me that she was actually grateful to have me to blame me for turning down invitations, because she hated them, too.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

It's not the only cause, but it's a big one.



I can agree, but only to a point. I think there's a lot more to it than that. And once again, even a fair number of presumably liberal scholars are saying it's the other way around.

Scholar Kay Hymowitz, author of Marriage and Caste in America: Separate and Unequal Families in a Post-Marital Age, turns the argument around and says it's not that harsh economic conditions lead to women having children without fathers, but that the decision to have children without fathers leads to harsh, and self-perpetuating, economic conditions.

Forget Juno. Out-of-wedlock births are a national catastrophe.

Note the article in Fortune below. Education matters.

Values matter more--much more. It's a certain set of values that get you the education, that give you the impression that having a kid without being married is a very big deal, etc. See The Triple Package by Amy Chua and Jed Rubenfeld.



Mainstream media is full of nothing but such articles. I've read a gazillion of them. There is a grain of truth to them. We are bombarded with articles that essentially say or imply there's little to nothing people can do who are born into difficult circumstances to improve their lives. But even liberal scholars are now pointing out that simply isn't true.



It's a very weak, reaction oriented solution. What we need are proactive solutions. That starts with values, as pointed out in the book Chua & Rubenfeld.

The fact that so many family values types are living in very poor areas of the country would seem to fly in the face your assertion.

Poverty begets poverty. Some people win the birth lottery, most don't. Those who work their way out of poverty are the exception, not the rule. The data support this.

I'm curious what these liberal scholars you are referencing say the solution is.

Why the abortion piece is important: Being forced to have that child that you don't want at a young age ends your options to right the ship and furthers the cycle of bad values that you are telling us are so important.

Tiger mom is completely off the deep end as far as I'm concerned. Her kids are going to need years of therapy. I'm quite familiar with her work. While raising your kids that way may lead to economic success, it also leads to deep seated insecurity and an inability to really ever be happy. I'm raising my kids to be respectful, well adjusted members of society; Not cut throat, isolated, a-holes who have no idea what it means to be content.

Certainly values matter, but you are asserting that people are poor because they don't try hard enough or they have the wrong values. Following your logic, when there was a stronger middle class, people had better values and it was the loss of these values that is causing the middle class to erode. What you haven't addressed is that at the same time the rich are getting richer. One can only assume based on your logic of good values=more money, the richest members of society must have better values now than they used to. Is that right? Of course it isn't. The system is gamed against those at the bottom. When the job left so did the values. It's harder to learn a good work ethic when your family is stressed because your father lost his job building cars and their are no other jobs in sight.

Values or not, the wealth of the family you are born in to is the single biggest predictive factor of how much money you will make in your life. Again, the data back this up.