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Well, well, look who has spoken--jjacobeclark, our non-resident expert on everything Denver. It looks like I made my point, this thread has drawn out the posters who feed on the misconceptions in The Denver Post's article. Milwaukee must be so boring that he has come out to dine...
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 12-02-2008 at 07:02 PM..
I agree with the quote [edit, as it turns out, it's not really the main message of the article]. Denver indeed is NOT on the cutting edge of anything. In fact, self styled urban hipsters in supposedly "urban," "chic" neighborhoods like LoDo, etc, have a highly overinflated view of how cool they find themselves to be, IMO.
But I don't see what the problem is.? Why does Denver have to be "cutting edge"? It's a nice place to live in the middle of America. I'm fine with that personally. It's not the end all, be all of all cities. But it's not behind the times either-- it's about right in step with the times.
Last edited by vegaspilgrim; 12-02-2008 at 06:43 PM..
Reason: just read the article, I see how the message is different than the quote.
I personally think that someone who has lived here for all their life or in other big cities that are doing fine (IE west coast, Boston, NYC etc) won't see Denver as cutting edge.I lived in one of the worst cities in America. And that's not just a personal opinion, my hometown has always made the top 10 lists of everything bad- murders, crime, decaying urban areas...
Again, it's always about personal experiences!
Denver is not LA or NYC but in all reality, who here wants that? I sure don't. If uber urban is your forte, so be it.
And besides, my definition of cutting edge is not stylish clothing, ugly art or headquarters headquarters headquarters...
But I don't see what the problem is.? Why does Denver have to be "cutting edge"? It's a nice place to live in the middle of America. I'm fine with that personally. It's not the end all, be all of all cities. But it's not behind the times either-- it's about right in step with the times.
Who wants to live in San Francisco, LA, New York, or Miami anyway?
Well, well, look who has spoken--jjacobeclark, our non-resident expert on everything Denver. It looks like I made my point, this thread has drawn out the posters who feed on the misconceptions in The Denver Post's article. Milwaukee must be so boring that he has come out to dine...
Livecontent
The problem with Denver is that Denver wants to be cutting edge and isn't no matter how hard it tries. Milwaukee isn't considered cutting edge by anyone and doesn't want or try to be, however Milwaukee ended up surprising everyone by having what Time Magazine named the Best Design of 2001 with their art museum expansion. Denver already thinks it's on par with the big dogs like New York and LA, but it's not even on the same level as Atlanta or Seattle. I may not live in Denver any longer, but how does that effect my judgment? I lived there long enough to know I don't like it. The fact people in Denver are even concerned about being considered cutting edge is symptomatic of your desire to be respected as something, anything, more than just a cow-town. If you like it there, then who cares what others think?
2b: I'm throwing a banana at you. ok, really though, good points. But the first two you mentioned, Ball Aerospace and Lockheed, they aren't based here are they? Are they bigger elsewhere? Northrop has a HUGE presence here, but they are outsourcing so much that you can't really say they have a huge presence here. Know what I mean?
Oh and what about the other cities? Are you naming off coastal towns (re: what Shari said about the coastal towns and fashion)? I laughed when I read the fashion thing. I think that one's dead on.
Thanks for playing!!!
p.s. - Where's your vote?!?!
I agree with the fashion issue. I can even offer some evidence. We spent a year in Albany, NY. Yes, the capitol of NYS, but not NYC by a longshot. Even so, dresses that were on the racks in Albany the year we lived there were on the racks in the dept stores in Denver the next year. Not just the same style, the exact same dresses!
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim
I agree with the quote [edit, as it turns out, it's not really the main message of the article]. Denver indeed is NOT on the cutting edge of anything. In fact, self styled urban hipsters in supposedly "urban," "chic" neighborhoods like LoDo, etc, have a highly overinflated view of how cool they find themselves to be, IMO.
But I don't see what the problem is.? Why does Denver have to be "cutting edge"? It's a nice place to live in the middle of America. I'm fine with that personally. It's not the end all, be all of all cities. But it's not behind the times either-- it's about right in step with the times.
I agree with this, too. Denver does not need to be "cutting edge". And the Democratic convention was a big deal and good publicity for Denver.
The problem with Denver is that Denver wants to be cutting edge and isn't no matter how hard it tries.
I think jjacobeclark has a point here. He's pointed out, correctly, that most of us Denverites are extremely proud of Denver. In fact, when people point a contrary view we're usually eager to stick up for our city and come to its defense. Fair enough, we all have weaknesses.
Still, I think that Denver does have a bit of an inferiority complex over having a "cowtown" image. Personally, I think we should have a bit more of a sense of humor about that. What's wrong with being a cowtown, anyway? Ranching and mining is our heritage and we should embrace that heritage even today. I see a lot of other major cities like Dallas, Texas and Phoenix try to play up their "cowboy" heritage but we're a WAY more authentic cowtown than both of those put together. Denver is scared to play up its western heritage because we're so scared of being ridiculed for being a "cowtown." We shouldn't be.
I just read the whole 5280 article. Not a bad article actually.
When Shari Caudron was looking for the essence of Denver, maybe she was looking in the wrong places? She starts off downtown, at the 16th st mall, maybe not a bad starting point, but I don't think the 16th St mall is anything close to the best Denver has to offer. Then she walks around Colfax, and some of the people she interviewed there were pretty interesting. Her Colfax tour was the best written part of the article, IMO. What's totally missing from her article is any sense of what the Denver metro area is like outside of the central Denver "urban" bubble. Her view of Denver is basically the same as steveindenver's. Whereas I think the suburbs, and even the suburban parts of the city of Denver are just as much Denver as the "urban" parts.
She missed the mark when it comes to diversity. She presents a claim about how Denver has no diversity, and then attempts to philosophize about it on p6: "Oddly enough, this lack of ethnic diversity probably does accurately reflect the city. While a good portion of the population here is Hispanic, the overwhelming majority—68 percent—is white, making Denver one of the whitest major cities in America. (Chicago, by comparison, is 36.5 percent white; Atlanta, 37.2 percent.) Despite this, when I've asked people what they like most about Denver, a perplexing number claimed that a major selling point is the city's diversity. Who knows why? Perhaps it's because they've moved here from small Midwestern towns. Perhaps the diversity they see is not ethnic but is represented by different lifestyles and religions. Or perhaps the word "diversity" captures the surprise you experience when a group of people you assumed to be one-dimensional turns out to be far more variegated."
Two points-- first, she gives lip service to the fact that Denver has a large Hispanic community, and then basically ignores them. This author must have a screw loose in her head. Either she does not consider Denver's Hispanic community to count as diverse or it just isn't important to her. Take a stroll down Federal Blvd and then try to tell me with a straight face Denver has no ethnic flavor: //www.city-data.com/forum/denve...eral-blvd.html.
And what about Denver's Asian community? She never even mentioned Aurora in her entire 8 page article, even though Aurora has a full blown "Koreatown" (only that it hasn't (yet) been called that), and tons of ethnic strip malls serving as focal points of the Indian/Pakistani, Middle Eastern, and Russian/former USSR communities. She never even mentions the fact that a lot of ethnic diversity can be found along Federal Blvd in west Denver-- she only mentions Alameda & Federal in accordance with gangs and robberies.
If she had explored Parker Rd/Leetsdale from where it begins to deep into SE Aurora, she might have a totally different perspective on what Denver is supposedly about. The author is imprisoned by her own prejudices about what Denver supposedly is and isn't that she doesn't really go exploring with an open mind. She claims in the article that she doesn't know what she was looking for, by I personally find that claim false. What she was looking for was stuff in Denver that reminded her of her hometown San Francisco. She wasn't fully open to what the Denver metro area REALLY is about. Denver metro area has almost 3 million people. The approximately 600k City and County of Denver (and even at that she only explored a small piece) is only 20% of the whole metro area. And while the municipality of Denver is the single most important municipality in the metro area, it's not all there is either. In fact, I'd argue that what is now considered the "inner ring" of suburbs, older suburbs built from the 1950s to the 1980s is the true bread and butter of what makes Denver Denver-- more than the gentrified "city" which scarcely resembles itself a generation ago or the same-old, same-old brand new suburbs on the outskirts of town.
She did end with a really good remark that I totally agree with: "Unlike a Boulder or an Aspen or even a San Francisco—cities that impose their worldview on residents, causing them to put up, shut up, or leave—Denver is close to attaining the magical impossibility of being all things to all people."
In this sense, Denver is a city not unlike Phoenix-- another western city that really doesn't have a clear cut "identity" trying to figure out its sense of place. We've had some great similar conversations on the Phoenix forum about this topic: //www.city-data.com/forum/phoen...nix-huh-4.html. I invite you to read what I had to say about Phoenix on that page, and the poster silverbear's (who btw, is the virtual equivalent of tfox on the PHX forum) response. This is a really interesting question (and I thank you wanttomoveeast for posting the article)-- and guess what? It's not just Denver! Intelligent people in other cities are asking the same questions.
Location: Governor's Park/Capitol Hill, Denver, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent
Well, well, look who has spoken--jjacobeclark, our non-resident expert on everything Denver. It looks like I made my point, this thread has drawn out the posters who feed on the misconceptions in The Denver Post's article. Milwaukee must be so boring that he has come out to dine...
Livecontent
Well said Livecontent, without posting the entire article or even the link to it in this thread draws out those who are not happy, with Denver or in general.
Since jjacobeclark states, "If you like it there, then who cares what others think?" Then he can try to discredit Denver's achievments all he wants but really who cares what he thinks. He wasn't happy here and evidently comes back to haunt the Denver thread, often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfox
Still, I think that Denver does have a bit of an inferiority complex over having a "cowtown" image. Personally, I think we should have a bit more of a sense of humor about that. What's wrong with being a cowtown, anyway? Ranching and mining is our heritage and we should embrace that heritage even today. I see a lot of other major cities like Dallas, Texas and Phoenix try to play up their "cowboy" heritage but we're a WAY more authentic cowtown than both of those put together. Denver is scared to play up its western heritage because we're so scared of being ridiculed for being a "cowtown." We shouldn't be.
I disagree tfox, Denver strongly supports it's annual Stock Show and it is one of the largest in the country. Farming animals is incredible hard with our winters and that industry has suffered here when compared to southern states. I don't think it is a matter of an inferiority complex as much as a industry that has taken a hit. Dallas and Houston do love the cowboy image and Fort Worth does an incredible stock show within a week or two of our own. But I don't see any of it in Phoenix in my quarterly business trips there. The exposure I had to cowboys as a kid was the Stock Show and still continue to go to some of the events. The IGRA (International Gay Rodeo Association) was started by the owner of Charlie's. Though he passed away this summer, his legacy to the rodeo community is huge and his bar is still one of most popular in Capitol Hill. Denver has so many transplants that many don't have much knowledge of cowboys or cows, but there is much here to help them learn should they wish.
I just read the whole 5280 article. Not a bad article actually.
<snip>
She missed the mark when it comes to diversity. She presents a claim about how Denver has no diversity, and then attempts to philosophize about it on p6: "Oddly enough, this lack of ethnic diversity probably does accurately reflect the city. While a good portion of the population here is Hispanic, the overwhelming majority—68 percent—is white, making Denver one of the whitest major cities in America. (Chicago, by comparison, is 36.5 percent white; Atlanta, 37.2 percent.) Despite this, when I've asked people what they like most about Denver, a perplexing number claimed that a major selling point is the city's diversity. Who knows why? Perhaps it's because they've moved here from small Midwestern towns. Perhaps the diversity they see is not ethnic but is represented by different lifestyles and religions. Or perhaps the word "diversity" captures the surprise you experience when a group of people you assumed to be one-dimensional turns out to be far more variegated."
Where did this woman come up with her statistic about Denver's population? Here is a link from the Denver Post, showing that Denver, the city, is actually majority-minority.
"In 2005, 49.8 percent of Denver's population (558,667) was deemed minority, or non-white. Now, 50.01 percent of the population of 566,974 is non-white."
"Now" means 2007! Perhaps she is talking about the entire metro area, in which case Denver's diversity is probably similar to Chicago's or Atlanta's. And why the disparaging comments about the midwest? Chicago is in the midwest, for heaven's sake! The demographic data does show a lot of midwesterners here, but most are from the cities, as that is where most people live. The small towns and rural areas of the midwest don't have a lot of people to migrate out.
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Who wants to live in San Francisco, LA, New York, or Miami anyway?
