What is "The City"? (Denver, Aurora: cul-de-sac, condos, homes)

[vegaspilgrim]

I keep hearing over and over again on this forum about "The City," (TM) like it's a mantra, an ideology, a self-righteous religion from the hardcore self-identified urbanists here. And yet when I read through their posts, I don't even see much agreement among what the urbanists themselves define as "The City," and often even self contradictions.

What exactly are you guys talking about when you say "The City"?

• Strictly Downtown Denver?
• Downtown Denver plus surrounding areas in a reasonable walking distance (if you vote this, please spell out for me which neighborhoods in particular you count as "The City")?
• All pre-WWII historic districts in the City of Denver (basically, whatever the map of Denver looked like circa 1945, that's what "The City" is?), even if said neighborhoods are predominately single family homes?
• The City = Synonymous with the current municipal boundaries of the City and County of Denver?
• "The City" is actually the entire Denver metro area as defined by the US Census Bureau-- it's all one big interdependent economic unit?

And as a followup, once you've voted and defined exactly what "The City" is, tell us what is so great about "The City"-- and here's the caveat-- without putting down "The Suburbs." Basically, sell "The City" on its own merits.

[DenverLawGal]

hmm, you are writing this for me aren't you? haha, jk.

The City. You mean Denver though and not just the city in general (meaning any city).

I'm a hardcore urbanist. I suppose I'm with your second bullet. I feel like when you are required to drive somewhere (say Thornton) that area is no longer the city. So while the Baker District is very near, you'd really have to drive (or bus for a little while) to get there, making it in my mind, not the city. I consider Captl. Hill to be the city. Lodo. Hilo. Uptown. Even over around Auraria where there are single family homes. Just because it's walkable from downtown.

I see your point. But I can't point out the good of the city without putting down the burbs! OK, well, maybe I can. I mean, the burbs are good for certain people.

For example, I love the freaks you find on Captl. Hill. We used to have names for various people, the tutu guy, the red spotted guy (used to run straight into trees), there was Gandolf (I still see him, with the bike?) and tons of others. Then there are the street kids, gutter punks, college students, hip gay couples, old gay couples, basically just what I used to think of as "the lost" (I was one of 'em).

I don't see them in Thornton. In Thornton, I see families. Lots of children. Minivans, SUVs.

Now in my mind these aren't exactly "bad" things, but just things that don't suit me. If I had three kids and a minivan, well then I might view Thornton entirely different.

Hope I answered and spoke the way I intended to get across.

Great post!!

[McGowdog]

When you live out in "The Country" or on "The Reservation" that is south of MM 128 or south of Academy Blvd South, then anything in the Denver Metro area seems like "The City" to me; a sea of lights and big buildings and street light... yeah street lights are a big deal for us country folk!... and traffic, you're in the city.

I could care less about the walkability of a "City" because when I'm done with it, I'm drivin' back out to my "Barn" on the "Prairie" to "hit the hay".

I'm more concerned about the "parkability" and "driveability" of a "city". So there's a non-urbanist's perspective.

Add: even when I lived in "Denver" I had to drive from one end to the other. When I was in Parker, I had to go to Arvada for some reason. Or if I lived in Littleton or Thornton, I had to go to Aurora or East Colfax for something. I once lived in Conifer/Evergreen and drove to Centennial/Englewood for work M-F and none of that was anything like living in The Valley and having to drive to Torrance.

I didn't realize this until watching the History Channel or whatever, but I guess there's like 1.5 million people living on Manhattan Island proper, but there's another 3.5 million coming to work there from the surrounding burroughs and the smart ones come across on the subway system. That's impressive. That's "The Real City" for ya. Nothing in the world compares to that.

[DenverLawGal]

hahaha McGow, you tell 'em!

I love these kind of thoughtful, intellectual threads.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

I'm more concerned about the "parkability" and "driveability" of a "city". So there's a non-urbanist's perspective.

Haha maybe that should be the defining characteristic of "the city": If you want to shoot yourself after circling for 15 minutes, unable to find a place to park, or there's a stop light every 100', then you're in "the city".

[DenverLawGal]

Escape: Don't forget using the middle finger for drivers who make you angry and/or rolling down the window to scream. That said, downtown Denver is the city. hahaha

But what about the other areas that are totally walkable, like old Arvada? Is that not The City? Not by my standards, but maybe someone else thinks so?

[the3Ds]

Vegaspilgrim...this is a great post. As a self-proclaimed "surburbanite" my definition of going to the "city" is the place where suddenly, there are no parking lots--everything is either metered or in a parking garage and you can walk. For me, when I take out-of-towners to the "city" it usually includes parking somewhere either near the Capitol or in LoDo and skirting the 16th Street Mall area, to include most of the museums, the government buildings, the convention center, Coors Field and my favorite place in all of downtown, The Tattered Cover. I can hear those who are city dwellers yelling at their computers right now, but as one of the many suburbanites, there's my take on it.

[DenverLawGal]

3ds: Actually, as a city lover/dweller, I think your post is really accurate. Especially the parking. Things like the museums and that awesome book store you just mentioned, are what make a good city a great city.

[denverian]

-If you set your alarm at night before going to bed, you might be a city slicker.
-If you're proud when your neighborhood makes the police blotter, you might be a city slicker.
-If you can walk to a grocery store, you might be a city slicker.
-If you think going to church means getting drunk at a club in an old building with a steeple, you might be a city slicker.
-If you can see your next door neighbor watching TV from your kitchen, you just might be a city slicker.
-If your bumpers are scraped up from parallel parking all the time, you might be a city slicker.
-If the first thing you do when you buy a new car is remove the hub caps before they're stolen, you might be a city slicker.
-If you purposely drive a P.O.S. car so nobody will mess with it, you just might be a city slicker.
-If you keep quarters in your ash tray for for parking meters, you might be a city slicker.
-If you think people who live in homes that don't share walls with other homes are all hillbillies, you just might be a city slicker.
-If you think Etheopian food is typical American food, you might be a city slicker.
-If you spend as much on parking tickes and coffee as you do electricity each month, you might be a city slicker.
-If you think sitting in traffic on Colorado Blvd. is personal time to catch up with old friends on the phone, you just might be a city slicker.
-If you think Cul-De-Sacs are French grocery bags they sell at Whole Foods, you might be a city slicker.
-If you've ever picked someone up at Whole Foods, you just might be a city slicker.
-If you think the Cherry Creek Mall is "out in the 'burbs", you might be a city slicker.
-If you think pot's legal and gay people already have the right to marry, you might be a city slicker.
-If your scooter has an Obama sticker and an Impeach Bush sticker on it, you might be a city slicker.
-If you know how to get to the Denver Aquarium without asking directions more than once, you might be a city slicker.
-If you understand why you can take 20th St. to get to 32nd Ave., you might be a city slicker.
-If you think going to the farmer's market is the same as having been on a farm, you might be a city slicker.
-If you've never seen Highland's Ranch, you might be a city slicker.
-If you think I-70 is only used to go skiing, you might be a city slicker.
-If gas cost $4 a gallon last time you filled up, you just might be a city slicker.

SOMEBODY STOP ME! HELP!

[vegaspilgrim]

Goods points so far! And keep 'em coming. I find these kinds of discussions are really eye-opening. As many of you probably guessed, I voted for "The City" = "The entire metro area."

The City. You mean Denver though and not just the city in general (meaning any city).

Exactly. I'm talking specifically about Denver here. Although once everybody's responses come in it could be interesting thinking about Denver compared to other cities. Some of the stuff that in Denver passes as "The City" would be a laughing joke for someone from New York, for example.

I'm a hardcore urbanist. I suppose I'm with your second bullet. I feel like when you are required to drive somewhere (say Thornton) that area is no longer the city. So while the Baker District is very near, you'd really have to drive (or bus for a little while) to get there, making it in my mind, not the city. I consider Captl. Hill to be the city. Lodo. Hilo. Uptown. Even over around Auraria where there are single family homes. Just because it's walkable from downtown.

What is "Hilo"? Never heard of that one before. And do you think all these syllable-abbreviation terms for neighborhoods (Lodo has the most usage of them all, but other ones I've seen include "SoBo," "SoCo") are truly Denver authentic, or do you think that sort of stuff is invented vocabulary for local neo-urbanites who want to liken Denver to trendy neighborhoods on the east coast (such as the original "SoHo")?

I see your point. But I can't point out the good of the city without putting down the burbs! OK, well, maybe I can. I mean, the burbs are good for certain people.

For example, I love the freaks you find on Captl. Hill. We used to have names for various people, the tutu guy, the red spotted guy (used to run straight into trees), there was Gandolf (I still see him, with the bike?) and tons of others. Then there are the street kids, gutter punks, college students, hip gay couples, old gay couples, basically just what I used to think of as "the lost" (I was one of 'em).

Now this sounds very interesting. It sounds like your former neighborhood has quite a colorful cast of characters!

I don't see them in Thornton. In Thornton, I see families. Lots of children. Minivans, SUVs.

Now in my mind these aren't exactly "bad" things, but just things that don't suit me. If I had three kids and a minivan, well then I might view Thornton entirely different.

I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking, why did you move from Capitol Hill to Thornton in the first place?

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

But what about the other areas that are totally walkable, like old Arvada? Is that not The City? Not by my standards, but maybe someone else thinks so?

That's a very good point. Many of the "suburbs" have their own walkable downtown areas-- Arvada, as you mentioned, as well as Golden, Littleton, Englewood, Aurora, heck, even Parker (very tiny) and Castle Rock!

I have a few other "what about"'s to ask. What about Cherry Creek? Does this or does this not count as "The City"? It's in the city of Denver, in a neighborhood originally built in the 20s/30s. It's not far at all from downtown via 1st Ave/ Speer Blvd. You can even bicycle from there to downtown in less than half an hour. It's a major shopping, dining, and business center-- the headquarters of many regional banks. There are an increasing number of mid rise and even high rise condos being built in the area. And yet, with the exception of myself and Scott5280, I don't know of one "city" poster on this forum who recognizes Cherry Creek for anything.

Here's another question. Is "The City" defined primarily by culture/entertainment/leisure-oriented districts as many explicitly or implicitly imply, or should it be defined by major business and employment centers? Because if we view as city as a collection of commerce centers, then downtown is just one of many regional nodes within the Denver Metro area. People work all over the place-- downtown, Lakewood, Golden, Boulder, Broomfield, Commerce City, the Denver Tech Center (when grouped with all of the office parks in the south suburbs along I-25, Centennial Airport area, and Meridian, the greater DTC area has far more office space than downtown Denver), DIA, and even Aurora! For all the talk about suburbanites being the ones with long commutes, how often do we hear about on this forum someone with a job in the Tech Center or Centennial Airport area but wants to live in a place like Washington Park? I can think of at least 5 such threads right off the top of my head. Anybody who has driven I-25 lately between downtown and the south suburbs (south to about Belleview), during rush hour knows that there is far more traffic congestion heading south in the morning and north in the evening than the other way around.

And one more question (I know I'm machine gunning these-- probably should have spread them out). Do you (and I'm not talking about you, WTME, I mean everybody here) believe that the "suburbs" of yesterday or even the "suburbs" of today can change over time or be redeveloped into higher density, more urban like, public transit-friendly areas and eventually be retrofitted into "The City"? Who says there is one magic date in history when "The City" was officially designated as such and can never change? I absolutely believe this can happen-- and in fact already has happened in many areas, people just don't believe it yet. I'm going to give some time for people to think about that...