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Bullfish: It seems like your comments are directed towards mine and some other recent ones. Is that so? If so, I want to say, that while I joke and comment about race relations and lack of race in Thornton, in no way am I assuming these people are racists. In fact, what I really felt was that many of the people I came into contact with had never seen or been around blacks and they really didn't know how to act. Also, I feel that one huge reason that racial tensions will be felt for years to come is because of both sides' inability to treat each other with dignity and understanding. When a white person tells me that no that person who just called me an N is not a racist and that I'm imagining things, I feel anger. Likewise if the situation is reversed. What is really lacking in this society is a sort of togetherness that I really don't think will ever come about again.
Bullfish: It seems like your comments are directed towards mine and some other recent ones. Is that so? If so, I want to say, that while I joke and comment about race relations and lack of race in Thornton, in no way am I assuming these people are racists. In fact, what I really felt was that many of the people I came into contact with had never seen or been around blacks and they really didn't know how to act. Also, I feel that one huge reason that racial tensions will be felt for years to come is because of both sides' inability to treat each other with dignity and understanding. When a white person tells me that no that person who just called me an N is not a racist and that I'm imagining things, I feel anger. Likewise if the situation is reversed. What is really lacking in this society is a sort of togetherness that I really don't think will ever come about again.
Hi Wanttomoveeast:
I see you keep posting, but I thought we took care of this race issue days ago?
Just out of curiosity - what would be your ideal scenario be when it comes to different races living in the same place? I think Bullfish brings up a valid point that sometimes people looking at you (strangely) is just because they're not accustomed to seeing you. Perhaps you're in a predominately white area and they don't get the chance to interact very often with people of color. So, if they take a 2nd look, I would say that it's often because they're curious more than anything. They'd also look at you if you were 7' tall, or were only 3' tall, or if you had bright red hair, or if you were missing your leg, your teeth, or if you had a glass eye, or they like your shoes. If you're different, you're going to attract a little more attention (no matter who you are). It's impolite, yes, but not much more...
However, if you consider race relations as the elephant in the room, these kinds of situations must represent the elephant's toenail. Yeah, it wasn't very tactful for the grocer to do a double-take at your white BF/Hubby, but it's not a scene he sees very often. At the very least, you might have to forgive him for being a dumbass. But fortunately he's not calling you names or refusing to serve you (which would have happened not long ago).
On the other hand, if there are people (of different races) who are blatantly treating you with indignity, then that's a problem. But be honest, how often have you heard the "N" word directed to you? For that matter, how do you interpret racism? Some people are just d*cks and will treat you poorly whether your black, white, or purple. In my situation, I had a black guy give me a finger on my way to work last week, but, in fairness, it probably had more to do with the fact that I pulled out in front as opposed to me being white. However, I could easily say that the guy just doesn't like white people. See whattamean?
I don't mean to minimize situations, but there is no job you can't have, no place you can't go, no club you can't join, no person you can't marry, no place you can't live, no school where you can't attend, no lawsuit that you can't win, no profession that you can't obtain, and no racial barrier that hasn't been vanquished. This is why a lot of people rationalize that although the playing field wasn't even in the past - it's gotten pretty close today. It's also the reason that many whites roll their eyes when blacks claim racism because they believe it's now gotten to the point of nit-picking. Let's say some idiot spray paints racist grafitti somewhere or thinks it's funny to hang a noose somewhere. Not only would 99% of the people be appalled, but it would probably make CNN as well. As a society, we're that fine-tuned to deploring these types of things en masse. Yes, you can point out the inequities, such as there aren't enough people of color in primetime television, or perhaps cops pulling you over for a missing tail-light (would he pull others over for the same offense..?), or not enough black coaches in Division I Football (true issues I agree), but I have to believe there are bigger concerns to the black community than this?
So, in your opinion, on a scale of 1-10, how much tougher is it to be a person of color in this country? What are the biggest hurdles? And, in a realistic sense, what would you hope to see in the next ten years?
Last edited by fritzdude; 12-02-2008 at 05:00 PM..
Fritz!!! omg!!! Yep, still posting, but the thread keeps going!
Don't get me wrong, Bullfish def. has a valid point. But it seemed like he maybe misread what I and others were trying to say. Sometimes the racism is misperceived. I know plenty of blacks with gigantic boulders on their shoulder, that's all they see. I myself have some race issues having been raised in an all-white town. But when I'm assessing a situation, race is the last thing I come to. First I think, are they staring at me because I have my fly down? Is there cilantro in my teeth? Am I glamorous and knock down hot? Eventually I get to the race thing. But even then it's just pondering. Unless we are talking outright obnoxious race crap. Oh and reread my post, I'm the one who told Bullfish that I thought the people in the grocery were staring mainly because they weren't used to being around blacks and didn't really see them in that area.
And it was Enigma that told about the grocer not realizing she was with the white guy. I'm the one who got it in the restaurant. Both Enigma and I stated we thought it was more out of silly not being used to blacks and whites being together.
Sometimes I think it's the elephant in the room. Whites are saying, what, no racism. And if something honest to god happens which it does all the time everyday, you get whites saying you are crazy, you are just imagining it. Which makes things so much worse. It creates a distrust between the people. Then there are the people who have chips on their shoulders and really are over the top and that creates mistrust with the whites. aaaaaaghhhh and on and on it goes.
"But be honest, how often have you heard the "N" word directed to you?" --- this is the sad state of the U.S. Your question makes me think that you doubt is usage. omg you can only imagine. I had it whispered in my ear in a club just last weekend. I'm 36. When I was a kid, I heard it everyday all day, in between having people beat on me or spit on me or throw gum in my hair. It wasn't until high school when I made one very dear friend who stuck by me that the violence ended. I still got called the N word though. It is so much more common than you think. I suppose that if you aren't living that, it would be hard to believe it's happening. And even if you take my word for it, it's just not your experience.
"thinks it's funny to hang a noose somewhere" -- two words for you --- Jenna 6. And I think that was just last year. The whites weren't nearly as appalled as the black community. Some parents even asked, "what's the big deal?". Some of the examples you gave me of racism seem to be like tv ads. Not really what's going on in society. What's really going on is not on the news or in movies. That's why you gotta paint yourself black for a day and just see. Or partake in Ice Cube's Black & White: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znS3tFa2Ifs. You can watch most of the show on youtube. Of course, it was very late at night so no one really knew about it and it was very short lived.
"I don't mean to minimize situations, but there is no job you can't have, no place you can't go, no club you can't join, no person you can't marry, no place you can't live, no school where you can't attend, no lawsuit that you can't win, no profession that you can't obtain, and no racial barrier that hasn't been vanquished." --- This statement, while a good rah rah to tell yourself, in reality is not always true. Again, don't get me wrong, I was taught this same principle. What really gets people down is when stuff happens to them and they begin to think the principle is not true. For example, did you know that (I believe, it's def. a country club) the Cherry Creek Country Club did not allow Jews and blacks and still doesn't in a non-official way? They officially didn't accept them only a few yrs. ago. There are plenty of places I could live, but I suppose that's like saying aw, you can eat that rotten meat, come on! When people are being murdered and having burning crosses put in their front yards, um no, they might disagree, there are places they can't live.
ok, back to one other thing you mentioned: Racism and what I believe it to be. Why whites roll their eyes when blacks complain because it seems like nitpicking. My coworker is not only stupid, but also just an awful racist. I say this because she seems to hate not just blacks but a variety of other groups too! (an equal opportunity racist!) She sends me emails and jokes about blacks, middle easterners and "indians" as she calls them. We call them native americans. She told me the native americans deserved what they got. They created their own situation. She told me that she's proud to be white and that if more blacks took care of themselves they too could be proud. So to me, this is outright racism. Then to make it even nicer, I send the emails to HR. So you'd think that this is blatant harrassment? Nope it was swept under the rug.
Phew. Finally, the end.
I can't speak for all blacks, just me. And it probably hugely varies by class, education, and location in the country. I can't really give you a number. Let's put it this way. For everything a white can be allowed to do, I must do 1 1/2 times better. For every mistake they are allowed, I am allowed 1/2 as much. And I have worked my b*tt off. I've gained an education, paid for out of my own pockets. I have forged my own (semi) career with good standing, but not by just sitting there. When I wasn't hired somewhere because (from the owner's mouth) blacks were not pretty and no way would he have one in his front office --- I pushed that issue --- and lost.
These are just experiences and thoughts. Not the truth, but my truth. In some ways this is a much better world then when I was born, in some ways not. You'll find this funny, but my biggest hurdle is being accepted w/in the black community. I don't "sound" black, don't "act" black, don't "dress" black. At the same time, I'm not white either and there are plenty of places I get the "look".
Realistically, I'd hope that some of the outdated and obviously race based laws were reversed.
Don't freak everyone. I'm just responding to questions by Fritz. I don't feel I have a chip on my shoulder, don't tell me to "get over it". Just a nice friendly conversation.
ex-lax??? hahaha, um, that's way too traceable. Really what happens to people like me in situations like that is we end up slinking back to our desk feeling awful. You can fight sure, but then you either have a very bad time at work or they just find a way to get rid of you lawfully.
"But be honest, how often have you heard the "N" word directed to you?" --- this is the sad state of the U.S. Your question makes me think that you doubt is usage. omg you can only imagine. I had it whispered in my ear in a club just last weekend. I'm 36. When I was a kid, I heard it everyday all day, in between having people beat on me or spit on me or throw gum in my hair. It wasn't until high school when I made one very dear friend who stuck by me that the violence ended. I still got called the N word though. It is so much more common than you think. I suppose that if you aren't living that, it would be hard to believe it's happening. And even if you take my word for it, it's just not your experience.
I can't speak for all blacks, just me. And it probably hugely varies by class, education, and location in the country. I can't really give you a number. Let's put it this way. For everything a white can be allowed to do, I must do 1 1/2 times better. For every mistake they are allowed, I am allowed 1/2 as much. And I have worked my b*tt off. I've gained an education, paid for out of my own pockets. I have forged my own (semi) career with good standing, but not by just sitting there. When I wasn't hired somewhere because (from the owner's mouth) blacks were not pretty and no way would he have one in his front office --- I pushed that issue --- and lost.
These are just experiences and thoughts. Not the truth, but my truth. In some ways this is a much better world then when I was born, in some ways not. You'll find this funny, but my biggest hurdle is being accepted w/in the black community. I don't "sound" black, don't "act" black, don't "dress" black. At the same time, I'm not white either and there are plenty of places I get the "look".
Realistically, I'd hope that some of the outdated and obviously race based laws were reversed.
I'm tired now!
Don't freak out everyone - just having a friendly rejoinder with my friend Wanttomoveeast here.. I do appreciate you describing your experiences rather than just talking in generalities. It sounds like your co-worker is a world class jerk, although she is a person whom we’ve all run up against from time to time. I bet she doesn't recycle either... And your HR department is negligent about enforcing their non-harassment policy. If it continues and you've made it apparent that you're not ok with it then that's when lawsuits are validated. At the very least, they should can her ass..
Regarding the "N" word - any white person that says it to a black person deserves a beat down. Enough said. I hope you threw your Red Bull and Vodka into their face.. But to address your point, it’s true I was actually doubting its usage, because to be honest, I never hear the word spoken, even when I'm only around red-neck fellers. But I can imagine it happened more when you were a kid since.. well.. kids are just mean. If it helps soothe your anger, I got beat down occasionally, too, but I just assumed it was because people were jealous of my cool Zip Sneakers. However, I've been called cracker before, as well as whitey, white boy, honky, and even Crisco (don't really get that one ), but I would agree that none of those words have the ability to cut like "N". Doesn't excuse those black fellers, though... However, I've mentioned before that I'm always playing basketball and will say that often times, I'm the only white guy on the court. And if I had a dollar for every time I heard "N" between black guys, I would be able to quit my job right now and drink frilly cocktails in the Bahamas. I could really care less - actually - but I'm just amused by the irony.
Finally, you bring up a good point about Class, Education, and Location. A good friend of mine growing up (black female) was the daughter of a doctor and a lawyer (she could have stood in for one of the Cosby kids). She was smart, athletic, and had a killer body, although that has no bearing on my story. Regardless, she had more opportunities and scholarships handed to her by colleges, companies, and social clubs than she could handle. But, she didn't need it.
Conversely, it's the poor kids who are the ones that could use a helping hand, but are often shut out. The black people stranded in N'orleans during Katrina: was it because they were black or because they were poor? You have to admit, having money brings political clout and they just don't have it. The white people in Appalachia have been overlooked for generations, but, again, they're poor. The Native Americans living on reservations are overlooked. They're poor. Latino immigrants living in barrios are overlooked. They're poor. My point is that class is a bigger determining factor on how people gain access and acceptance in this country, more prominent than even color. Regardless, I'm not disagreeing that you have to work harder to get ahead; you probably do. It was Spike Lee who said he had to work 1.5 times harder back in the day, but I just think that ratio is coming down some. That said, feel free to have an extended lunch hour this afternoon. You deserve it.
And speaking of this - if you can point out any race based law that is still on the books, which activily discriminates against you - I will pay for your lunch.
Yes, friendly conversation which I greatly appreciate and admire.
I think that generalities are useless and therefore I try to be as specific as I can -- especially here. My coworker is a waste of space, although funny, I work for a law firm and strangely, many firms seem to have more broken laws than just regular corps. Maybe because they are smarter and know how to maneuver.
Oh and she thinks recycling is for tree huggers. She also announced she was voting for McCain although she was too dense to figure out how to vote. hahahaha, true story.
The N word, a big controversy. The way I see it is it's a word. Black guys use it as a term of endearment. Whites use it on blacks as a word of hate. A lot of this is in fluctuation. Blacks say brutha and n*ga. Whites say, well, you know, and there's almost always this awful sneer that comes with it. I have some white friends who doubt it's being used in a hateful manner. I have some white friends who other racists have blabbed to because they assume white = idiot. So some have heard it and some not.
I do agree, kids are mean and I'm sure that's why I heard it more. Plus, use it now and you risk your job. Use it in school and in my case the teachers looked the other way. They got A's and I got F's. Not because I'm stupid, because I plain just didn't want to attend class and be tortured. It is ironic and even the black population is having heavy arguments about it's use (see Bill Cosby and Rev. Jackson). The ****** thing is just as bad but you are right, it doesn't carry the same weight as the N is deeply historical and carries deep pain with it.
Class and education. I grew up poor. My grades s*cked. I didn't get any kind of assistance at all. No scholarship, nothing. Although my lawyer friends tell me I could get into law school easier than whites because I'm a woman and a black woman at that. The blacks of Katrina were stranded because 1) they were poor and 2) because they were poor their education was lacking too. It's a sore subject for me because once again, I get to hear my moronic coworker tell me how stupid those blacks were and how it's their fault that they got hurt/stranded because I guess they should have just packed up their Rolls and stayed at the nearby Ritz.
I think it's true that blacks have to work 1.5 times harder. Because when they fail, a lot of society says see? told you. If whites do it, well, then no biggie. Not everywhere, not all the time, but you get the gist.
And it's not that I'm saying just blacks either (although this is the main topic), but hispanics get the short end too as well as a zillion other races. Middle easterners get to be the flavor of not just the week, but the last few years. Just because they come from the Middle East. They could be from India but for all many ignorami U.S. cares, they are from that region, therefore they equal terrorists. Or at the very least, they talk strange and act strange and good god they aren't attending the Jesus Christ of Christ Church every Sunday. Last year during Ramadan, this guy was praying (to the east?south? can't remember, maybe all directions) during sunset. I watched in horror as we are smack downtown and entire groups of people (ignoramis) just stood and stared. Pathetic.
As to race based law on the books, I don't believe that was my statement. Certainly not my belief. I wasn't speaking about statutes or regulations, but more hidden things. I carry beliefs of institutionalized racism, that's right, think Black Panthers. Because I do believe it exists. Standardized testing for kids and taxing. Nice. So if you are in the poor area then too bad for you because your tests are bad, you are poor and black. Ever notice the really bad ghettos in Atlanta and Miami that don't even have paved roads? hmm. Used textbooks for the poor black kids and nice new progressive books for the whites living in nice areas, funded by good taxes. Again, not just blacks and not just the U.S. Just some examples I can think of off the top of my head. And if you really think about this, kids are our next leaders and generations. ugh.
At this point, I do wonder about class being a more prevalent factor than race to get ahead. In fact, I think you are right. But they are all linked together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzdude
Don't freak out everyone - just having a friendly rejoinder with my friend Wanttomoveeast here.. I do appreciate you describing your experiences rather than just talking in generalities. It sounds like your co-worker is a world class jerk, although she is a person whom we’ve all run up against from time to time. I bet she doesn't recycle either... And your HR department is negligent about enforcing their non-harassment policy. If it continues and you've made it apparent that you're not ok with it then that's when lawsuits are validated. At the very least, they should can her ass..
Regarding the "N" word - any white person that says it to a black person deserves a beat down. Enough said. I hope you threw your Red Bull and Vodka into their face.. But to address your point, it’s true I was actually doubting its usage, because to be honest, I never hear the word spoken, even when I'm only around red-neck fellers. But I can imagine it happened more when you were a kid since.. well.. kids are just mean. If it helps soothe your anger, I got beat down occasionally, too, but I just assumed it was because people were jealous of my cool Zip Sneakers. However, I've been called cracker before, as well as whitey, white boy, honky, and even Crisco (don't really get that one ), but I would agree that none of those words have the ability to cut like "N". Doesn't excuse those black fellers, though... However, I've mentioned before that I'm always playing basketball and will say that often times, I'm the only white guy on the court. And if I had a dollar for every time I heard "N" between black guys, I would be able to quit my job right now and drink frilly cocktails in the Bahamas. I could really care less - actually - but I'm just amused by the irony.
Finally, you bring up a good point about Class, Education, and Location. A good friend of mine growing up (black female) was the daughter of a doctor and a lawyer (she could have stood in for one of the Cosby kids). She was smart, athletic, and had a killer body, although that has no bearing on my story. Regardless, she had more opportunities and scholarships handed to her by colleges, companies, and social clubs than she could handle. But, she didn't need it.
Conversely, it's the poor kids who are the ones that could use a helping hand, but are often shut out. The black people stranded in N'orleans during Katrina: was it because they were black or because they were poor? You have to admit, having money brings political clout and they just don't have it. The white people in Appalachia have been overlooked for generations, but, again, they're poor. The Native Americans living on reservations are overlooked. They're poor. Latino immigrants living in barrios are overlooked. They're poor. My point is that class is a bigger determining factor on how people gain access and acceptance in this country, more prominent than even color. Regardless, I'm not disagreeing that you have to work harder to get ahead; you probably do. It was Spike Lee who said he had to work 1.5 times harder back in the day, but I just think that ratio is coming down some. That said, feel free to have an extended lunch hour this afternoon. You deserve it.
And speaking of this - if you can point out any race based law that is still on the books, which activily discriminates against you - I will pay for your lunch.
I think class definitely has something to do with it. I grew up on a lower-middle class (some years flat out poor) family that at least had the smarts to find the cheapest house in a great school district, so I went to school with upper middle/upper class kids. I was made fun of for my clothes, so I got lawn mowing jobs to earn money to buy clothes that helped me fit in.
But the biggest thing I realized was how richer, educated parents groom their kids for success. For instance, I had two friends - one had an attorney for a father, one a CPA. Now they both have taken over their faterhers' firms and are rich. I, on the other hand, had no clue what to major in in college, and my parents had no clue either and were of no help. I paid my own way with the GI Bill and working min. wage jobs during college. But even after graduation, I had no clue about the corporate world, about finances, how to get ahead, etc. My dad just went to his blue collar job all his life and did what he was told to do. So leadership skills weren't passed on to me.
Eventually I figured out the corporate world, but not before making bad decisions, taking wrong jobs, and even filing bankruptcy. No matter what your race, if your parents pay your way though college, you have more time to study and you're able to do the internships and get a leg up into the corporate world. Then you also don't start your work life in debt up to your eyeballs which makes things easier those first few years working. And a lot of the skills you need are often learned from your parents. I'm sure some people are just born leaders, but I have a feeling it's usually a learned trait.
Denver: Thanks for your post! I completely agree. I kind of grew up like you. I would borrow my rich friends clothes to try to fit in, but it was obvious they weren't my clothes. My mom used to sew our clothes. How embarrasing! Everyone is wearing Guess and I'm wearing either homemade or thrift store buys.
I worked full-time and went to college and it irritated me to no end to see all of these very privileged kids going and spending the day on campus without a care. If I was not doing well, I sweated. They really didn't care, it wasn't their money.
And yeah, like you, my parents were blue collars. So I was really bad with money (my DH taught me) and still don't have a clue as to a career. I'm lucky though because I basically fell into law and it's a good paying, good benefit job.
I think where the race thing comes into play is sometimes connected to the education. Like you said, your parents were smart enough to live by the good school. My school was good by standards, but horrible in that I was the only black and therefore suffered socially. I also had only one choice for a school since there were only two jr. highs and one high school!
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And your HR department is negligent about enforcing their non-harassment policy. If it continues and you've made it apparent that you're not ok with it then that's when lawsuits are validated. At the very least, they should can her ass.. 
), but I would agree that none of those words have the ability to cut like "N". Doesn't excuse those black fellers, though... However, I've mentioned before that I'm always playing basketball and will say that often times, I'm the only white guy on the court. And if I had a dollar for every time I heard "N" between black guys, I would be able to quit my job right now and drink frilly cocktails in the Bahamas. I could really care less - actually - but I'm just amused by the irony. 
Regardless, she had more opportunities and scholarships handed to her by colleges, companies, and social clubs than she could handle. But, she didn't need it. 
