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They'd be laying new cement because this is a light rail and not a high speed rail. The rails are grooved into the cement and you can't do that with crumbling asphalt.
Are you sure? Could you provide a link to substantiate that. I'd be very surprised if all you have to do is cut out the concrete and drop in a rail. If that is the case, why not put the rail in now instead of pouring concrete only to have to cut it out later?
The roads are what... 6 or 8 inches thick, and the rail is what... 4 inches tall, so when they cut out 4 inches for the rail, it will be resting on 2 inches of concrete?
I'd be thrilled as hell if you can prove me wrong.
Are you sure? Could you provide a link to substantiate that. I'd be very surprised if all you have to do is cut out the concrete and drop in a rail. If that is the case, why not put the rail in now instead of pouring concrete only to have to cut it out later?
The roads are what... 6 or 8 inches thick, and the rail is what... 4 inches tall, so when they cut out 4 inches for the rail, it will be resting on 2 inches of concrete?
I'd be thrilled as hell if you can prove me wrong.
And you're some structural engineer? You have no idea what they were doing and this is part of your ongoing quest to once again find a fail with Detroit. I really don't think you have any clue of what work they were doing nor do I think you would even know the first thing in building this system. How the hell do you even know how thick the cement is? Perhaps they needed to recement the road in order to make it thicker. The train system they are installing is actually like a street car as seen in places like Baltimore and Portland. Here is a link of what is involved and a picture of a street car in Baltimore.
Quote:
Unlike light rail, which require an entire reconstruction of the underground infrastructure to support the weight of the heavier light rail cars, streetcar rail is embedded into the street. Because of the lighter weight of streetcars, most modern streets can already support a streetcar. Construction of a streetcar line can be as basic as removing enough concrete in the road for the rails to seat, less disruption than repairing a simple underground water line. At last estimate, it takes one week to construct a city block worth of track.
As you can see the tracks are set into the pavement. I still don't know how you can drive down the road and know exactly what they were doing. Where on Woodward was the construction?
What you're talking about is Transit Oriented Development (TOD's). Economic development spurs around transit stations and usually encompasses a 20 minute walk catchment area. As for the trolley system...it would be an "OK" public transit system...light rail would be better. Even though Portland has been instrumental in setting the trend for progressive urban planning (esp. public transit)...the idea of overhead power lines brings back thoughts of the late 1800's into early 1900's when there were power lines, telephone lines...lines...lines...lines everywhere. I'd personally prefer a cleaner look of the rail.
Someone mentioned that the People Mover should be tied in...this is an absolute must. SMART and DDOT bus lines also need to be tied in at some, not all, transit stations. The development groups need to be thinking Intermodal Public Transportation...not part and parcel.
My "In a Nutshell" plan for Detroit's mass transit would be a light rail line running at least up Woodward to the "fringe" areas of development...Pontiac at the least. Modify the People Mover to coordinate with areas of recent reinvestment (Ford Field, Comerica Park...Compuware Bldg, Casinos) and position extension "spurs" toward areas where future development/reinvestment may occur.
Establish a major transit station at the Woodward Avenue overpass where it crosses I-75. Have the People Mover meet the Light Rail at this point, again thinking Intermodal-not single transit. This, theoretically can allow for a Light Rail line toward Metro Airport, and onward to Ann Arbor.
Establish another major mass transit station at Metro Airport where another tier of transit can be added...a Mag-Lev high speed rail line between Chicago and Detroit.
Not bad for a cool $5-$15 billion...
What you're talking about is Transit Oriented Development (TOD's). Economic development spurs around transit stations and usually encompasses a 20 minute walk catchment area. As for the trolley system...it would be an "OK" public transit system...light rail would be better. Even though Portland has been instrumental in setting the trend for progressive urban planning (esp. public transit)...the idea of overhead power lines brings back thoughts of the late 1800's into early 1900's when there were power lines, telephone lines...lines...lines...lines everywhere. I'd personally prefer a cleaner look of the rail.
Someone mentioned that the People Mover should be tied in...this is an absolute must. SMART and DDOT bus lines also need to be tied in at some, not all, transit stations. The development groups need to be thinking Intermodal Public Transportation...not part and parcel.
My "In a Nutshell" plan for Detroit's mass transit would be a light rail line running at least up Woodward to the "fringe" areas of development...Pontiac at the least. Modify the People Mover to coordinate with areas of recent reinvestment (Ford Field, Comerica Park...Compuware Bldg, Casinos) and position extension "spurs" toward areas where future development/reinvestment may occur.
Establish a major transit station at the Woodward Avenue overpass where it crosses I-75. Have the People Mover meet the Light Rail at this point, again thinking Intermodal-not single transit. This, theoretically can allow for a Light Rail line toward Metro Airport, and onward to Ann Arbor.
Establish another major mass transit station at Metro Airport where another tier of transit can be added...a Mag-Lev high speed rail line between Chicago and Detroit.
Not bad for a cool $5-$15 billion...
If even 1/3 of your plan came to fruition, I would be ecstatic, especially if we could get private enterprise to pay for and manage the system, like the street cars were before government-owned roads put them all out of business.
What you're talking about is Transit Oriented Development (TOD's). Economic development spurs around transit stations and usually encompasses a 20 minute walk catchment area. As for the trolley system...it would be an "OK" public transit system...light rail would be better. Even though Portland has been instrumental in setting the trend for progressive urban planning (esp. public transit)...the idea of overhead power lines brings back thoughts of the late 1800's into early 1900's when there were power lines, telephone lines...lines...lines...lines everywhere. I'd personally prefer a cleaner look of the rail.
Someone mentioned that the People Mover should be tied in...this is an absolute must. SMART and DDOT bus lines also need to be tied in at some, not all, transit stations. The development groups need to be thinking Intermodal Public Transportation...not part and parcel.
My "In a Nutshell" plan for Detroit's mass transit would be a light rail line running at least up Woodward to the "fringe" areas of development...Pontiac at the least. Modify the People Mover to coordinate with areas of recent reinvestment (Ford Field, Comerica Park...Compuware Bldg, Casinos) and position extension "spurs" toward areas where future development/reinvestment may occur.
Establish a major transit station at the Woodward Avenue overpass where it crosses I-75. Have the People Mover meet the Light Rail at this point, again thinking Intermodal-not single transit. This, theoretically can allow for a Light Rail line toward Metro Airport, and onward to Ann Arbor.
Establish another major mass transit station at Metro Airport where another tier of transit can be added...a Mag-Lev high speed rail line between Chicago and Detroit.
Not bad for a cool $5-$15 billion...
What i meant with the People Mover comment was that the existing People Mover line should be converted to a light rail line. So when a light rail train arrives downtown on the Woodward Ave corridor it makes a "loop" on the People Mover Line, and then heads back. Same thing if an Airport Light Rail Corridor gets build some day, it would tie onto the same downtown loop line as the Woodward Corridor, and then head back to the Airport.
Or whatever, you could have 10 different light rail lines all coming downtown, each one having trains taking the same loop line, discharging passengers on the way and picking up new ones, then each one heading back to their starting point on their respective lines. Much more efficient to make the train take a loop downtown, as opposed to having it terminate at one specific point.
About the mag-lev.. let's be realistic. Why spend all that money on a single mag-lev line, you'd need to build a whole new rail line and i believe even $15 billion for that isn't enough. There are already plenty of conventional railroad lines between Chicago and Detroit that can be used for high speed intercity rail, one already is in use. Invest some money to eliminate grade crossings with other railroads, soften up a few tight curves here and there, work some of the other bottlenecks and you'd have a relatively fast, very reliable high-speed railroad line, with the costs nowhere near as high as with a mag-lev line.
And speaking of transit, if Metro Detroit area ever wants conventional commuter rail, there's plenty of railroad infrastructure already in place that could potentially support such a system. Light Rail is ok on 10...15 miles, after that it simply becomes too slow. Conventional commuter rail.. you can create fast 20.. 40 mile rail links by using infrastructure that is already in place and upgradeable with reasonable costs.
What i meant with the People Mover comment was that the existing People Mover line should be converted to a light rail line. So when a light rail train arrives downtown on the Woodward Ave corridor it makes a "loop" on the People Mover Line, and then heads back. Same thing if an Airport Light Rail Corridor gets build some day, it would tie onto the same downtown loop line as the Woodward Corridor, and then head back to the Airport.
Methinks that Vic doesn't realize that the People Mover is an elevated commuter line. There would have to be rather long ramps that would raise the M-1 commuter line to the height of the People Mover line.
And you're some structural engineer? You have no idea what they were doing and this is part of your ongoing quest to once again find a fail with Detroit. I really don't think you have any clue of what work they were doing nor do I think you would even know the first thing in building this system. How the hell do you even know how thick the cement is? Perhaps they needed to recement the road in order to make it thicker. The train system they are installing is actually like a street car as seen in places like Baltimore and Portland. Here is a link of what is involved and a picture of a street car in Baltimore.
As you can see the tracks are set into the pavement. I still don't know how you can drive down the road and know exactly what they were doing. Where on Woodward was the construction?
No, I'm not a structural engineer, but I am a taxpayer who doesn't want to see my tax dollars wasted on concrete that will have to be torn up and wasted. The road construction was taking place between approximately I-75 and Highland Park (if I am ambitious enough today and have time, I'll swing by again for a better look). It was clearly obvious that the entire width of Woodward had been recently paved and that there was no rail or gap for rail or any other obvious indication that a rail line was going to be there in the near future.
Yes, I may be completely wrong, and that is why I am asking. I never said I knew exactly what they were doing. I was only sharing my observation, and hoping that someone may know more that I do and could explain. That's kind of what forums are for, isn't it?
I would have to believe, based on my very limited knowledge of rail lines that they require some type of foundation other that regular roadway. If I am wrong, I welcome you to explain it for me. All I am asking for is information, not your condescending, arrogant scolding remarks.
Just a correction to my previous post. I drove by today to confirm what I saw and take some pictures. The construction just north of I-75 only extends for a few blocks and no concrete has been laid in that portion, although several lanes were closed and some of the roadway was being removed. The portion that has been repaved curb-to-curb extends from the Highland Park border (Tuxedo Ave) to just north of Grand Blvd (Delaware/Chandler Aves), approximately 2 miles.
Just out of curiosity, I drove the whole length of Woodward in Detroit to see how many buses I passed. It is 9 miles from 8 Mile Rd to downtown and it took me 21 minutes. I passed only 10 buses going northbound. True, it wasn't rush hour, but this level of bus service would hardly justify installing a mass transit rail system, in my opinion.
Additionally, they could save a lot of money by stopping the line at McNichols, as the northern 2 miles has very little activity, being bordered on the west by Palmer Park and the Palmer Woods subdivision. Also there is a boulevard median in this area which would pose some additional challenges and the removal and which would detract from that area.
Also, the section downtown will pose some challenges as Woodward was narrowed down a few lanes a few years back.
Just a correction to my previous post. I drove by today to confirm what I saw and take some pictures. The construction just north of I-75 only extends for a few blocks and no concrete has been laid in that portion, although several lanes were closed and some of the roadway was being removed. The portion that has been repaved curb-to-curb extends from the Highland Park border (Tuxedo Ave) to just north of Grand Blvd (Delaware/Chandler Aves), approximately 2 miles.
Just out of curiosity, I drove the whole length of Woodward in Detroit to see how many buses I passed. It is 9 miles from 8 Mile Rd to downtown and it took me 21 minutes. I passed only 10 buses going northbound. True, it wasn't rush hour, but this level of bus service would hardly justify installing a mass transit rail system, in my opinion.
You have to remember the other factors behind building light rail:
(1) Our system is being paid for partly by private investment and partly by federal transit funding. Thus, we're in a "use it or lose it" situation. I say we use it.
(2) The transportation benefits of LRT are as important as spurring economic development, which light rail has done in virtually every city it has been built in.
(3) Light rail transit makes the region more attractive to new residents and new businesses. It is a basic staple in every modern region. You can't make a case for Metro Detroit without a desirable and functional transit system.
(4) Woodward Avenue is the main artery of the region and has many 'destinations' along its route. Visitors have no easy means of reaching these destinations without transit, and most tourists will not ride the buses (even if they can figure them out).
(5) Light rail's ridership will steadily grow as people move near the line's stops. Ridership is expected to grow as people move back to urban centers, and as the cost of driving a car increases.
Additionally, the traffic activity on Woodward more than surpasses the level considered sensible to build light rail. I would argue that light rail would even be beneficial on Michigan Ave, Gratiot, and E. Jefferson based on traffic patterns and points-of-interest.
You have to remember the other factors behind building light rail:
(1) Our system is being paid for partly by private investment and partly by federal transit funding. Thus, we're in a "use it or lose it" situation. I say we use it.
Couldn't the money be used for other things. Private money doesn't have to be used for transit and the federal money could be better used to help fund bus transit which was cut back by Mayor Bing due to lack of funds.
(2) The transportation benefits of LRT are as important as spurring economic development, which light rail has done in virtually every city it has been built in.
Well, I'll grant you that it might help out some of the businesses and resident along the path, but how far will this extend off of Woodward. A 1/4 mile? A 1/2 mile? In all the other cities that light rail has been built in, have any had the level of abandonment that can be found in Detroit?
(3) Light rail transit makes the region more attractive to new residents and new businesses. It is a basic staple in every modern region. You can't make a case for Metro Detroit without a desirable and functional transit system.
True, it would be nice to have, but at what cost and with sacrifice to what other things that the money could be used for? If the money was used instead to tear down all the dilapidated homes and buildings within a half mile of Woodward, couldn't that also benefit the area?
(4) Woodward Avenue is the main artery of the region and has many 'destinations' along its route. Visitors have no easy means of reaching these destinations without transit, and most tourists will not ride the buses (even if they can figure them out).
I find it hard to believe that a bus is any harder to ride than rail transit. I've ridden them both in other cities. They're interchangeable from a rider's standpoint, in my opinion. Also, most riders will have to transfer to or from buses to reach destinations not along woodward, so they will have to learn 2 systems.
(5) Light rail's ridership will steadily grow as people move near the line's stops. Ridership is expected to grow as people move back to urban centers, and as the cost of driving a car increases.
Again, to what extent will this benefit penetrate off Woodward? And what will these additional people be moving into, dilapidated buildings and homes? And what substantiation do you have that the cost of driving will increase? The government has raised CAFE standards and with the introduction of hybrids and electrics, spikes in oil prices will have less impact. In fact, it could be argued that driving will become cheaper.
Additionally, the traffic activity on Woodward more than surpasses the level considered sensible to build light rail. I would argue that light rail would even be beneficial on Michigan Ave, Gratiot, and E. Jefferson based on traffic patterns and points-of-interest.
I'd agree that an extensive system covering the city would make more sense from a rider's point of view, but at what cost, and is there really that great of a demand for it. Generally, the prime argument for rail is that it will help alleviate traffic congestion, which is virtually non-existent in Detroit. I'd like to see the data that substantiates the claim that the level of traffic surpasses the ability of bus transit.
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You have no idea what they were doing and this is part of your ongoing quest to once again find a fail with Detroit. I really don't think you have any clue of what work they were doing nor do I think you would even know the first thing in building this system. How the hell do you even know how thick the cement is? Perhaps they needed to recement the road in order to make it thicker. The train system they are installing is actually like a street car as seen in places like Baltimore and Portland. Here is a link of what is involved and a picture of a street car in Baltimore.
