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Thanks!
But, just wondering, why is Detroit and Downtown Detroit two separate options on the poll?
Well, I originally wanted to break the city down into several parts, like East Riverfront, Jefferson-Chalmers, downtown, Midtown, New Center, Delray, Woodbridge, Mexicantown, Corktown, Lafayette Park, Poletown, English Village, Morningside, Indian Village, Warrendale, Palmer Woods, Boston-Edison, etc, etc, etc, but that poll was ridiculously large and probably wouldn't have been very effective. As it stands, I think I broke the 'burbs down into too many parts. However, I really wanted to get a sense of what people desired about an area and why they chose that specific neighborhood over others. For instance, I figured that those living in "greater downtown" probably wanted to be in a denser urban environment than those who chose a neighbrhood like Indian Village, who were probably looking for a historic mansion. If you think about it, a person who lives in Palmer Woods has more in common with a Grosse Pointer in terms of housing preferences than say me, who lives in a highrise. A person who lives along the River, in say the Marina District, probably has something in common with someone who lives along the River in Trenton. So, long story short, I wanted to not only see where people live, but also what their housing preferences were. I figured that seperating out greater downtown would at least show who prefers higher density, like me.
Well, I originally wanted to break the city down into several parts, like East Riverfront, Jefferson-Chalmers, downtown, Midtown, New Center, Delray, Woodbridge, Mexicantown, Corktown, Lafayette Park, Poletown, English Village, Morningside, Indian Village, Warrendale, Palmer Woods, Boston-Edison, etc, etc, etc, but that poll was ridiculously large and probably wouldn't have been very effective. As it stands, I think I broke the 'burbs down into too many parts. However, I really wanted to get a sense of what people desired about an area and why they chose that specific neighborhood over others. For instance, I figured that those living in "greater downtown" probably wanted to be in a denser urban environment than those who chose a neighbrhood like Indian Village, who were probably looking for a historic mansion. If you think about it, a person who lives in Palmer Woods has more in common with a Grosse Pointer in terms of housing preferences than say me, who lives in a highrise. A person who lives along the River, in say the Marina District, probably has something in common with someone who lives along the River in Trenton. So, long story short, I wanted to not only see where people live, but also what their housing preferences were. I figured that seperating out greater downtown would at least show who prefers higher density, like me.
Ah. I see, it makes sense now.
See, I've never really liked high density. I've always lived in a single family home. But, I moved to Detroit for the walk-ability. In the warmer months, I can walk or bike to work - something I've never done before. And, when I do, it takes me past some beautiful views and amazing architecture.
...However, I really wanted to get a sense of what people desired about an area and why they chose that specific neighborhood over others. For instance, I figured that those living in "greater downtown" probably wanted to be in a denser urban environment than those who chose a neighborhood like Indian Village, who were probably looking for a historic mansion. If you think about it, a person who lives in Palmer Woods has more in common with a Grosse Pointer in terms of housing preferences than say me, who lives in a highrise. A person who lives along the River, in say the Marina District, probably has something in common with someone who lives along the River in Trenton. So, long story short, I wanted to not only see where people live, but also what their housing preferences were. I figured that seperating out greater downtown would at least show who prefers higher density, like me.
Then why didn't you just ask that? I don't think you can answer your "housing preferences" question with the poll you devised. There is little, if any, correlation with the exception of those choosing "downtown". Alomst all of metro Detroit is low density outside of downtown.
There may also be some misconceptions in believing that those who live in high-rises actually prefer living there. For example, if you look at Manhattan, you would assume that most people living there prefer high density living. But considering how many Manhattaners have weekend homes outside the city (if they can afford one) and how desirable it is to live near the last vestige of "suburbaninity" (Central Park), I'm led to believe that many Manhattaners live in high-rises not because it is their preference, but because it is their only option (unless they don't mind a long commute).
To translate this to Detroit: the reason most metro Detroiters choose not to live downtown, presumably in high-rises, is because there are other, more desirable, options within close proximity.
If you asked for housing preferences, I can guess what the response will be:
2 people who prefer high density
20 people who prefer low density
and 200 people who don't participate for some reason (maybe someone will hunt them down????)
Then why didn't you just ask that? I don't think you can answer your "housing preferences" question with the poll you devised. There is little, if any, correlation with the exception of those choosing "downtown". Alomst all of metro Detroit is low density outside of downtown.
There may also be some misconceptions in believing that those who live in high-rises actually prefer living there. For example, if you look at Manhattan, you would assume that most people living there prefer high density living. But considering how many Manhattaners have weekend homes outside the city (if they can afford one) and how desirable it is to live near the last vestige of "suburbaninity" (Central Park), I'm led to believe that many Manhattaners live in high-rises not because it is their preference, but because it is their only option (unless they don't mind a long commute).
To translate this to Detroit: the reason most metro Detroiters choose not to live downtown, presumably in high-rises, is because there are other, more desirable, options within close proximity.
I disagree. People pay huge premiums to live "in the city." Rents in most downtowns are astronomical. The cost of living in most central cities, like NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, D.C., Seattle, Portland, and even Pittsburgh is substantially more expensive than housing outside the city. People are paying for proximity, not only to their workplace, but also to everything else that is usually concentrated in cities.
Greater downtown Detroit has a variety of housing options ranging from 30+ story highrises with rents from $450-3,500/mo, to luxury condos with values that exceeded $1,000,000. There are a few buildings downtown that cater to low-income folks, but most buildings cater to people who are choosing to live in high density. The rich folks with penthouses a few floors above me are definitely not paying what they're paying because they have a lack of alternatives. I would argue that those who choose to live downtown, midtown, corktown, lafayette park, or in a highrise on the Riverfront are actually more likely to prefer high desnity than some people in NYC who have locked in a rent-controlled studio apartment and can't afford to leave.
Like I said to Remisc, my poll isn't perfect, but I thought it was safe to assume that if someone lives in greater downtown, they probably prefer to be in a higher density, very urban area. In general, it is cheaper to live in one of the less dense neighborhoods in Detroit than near downtown. But, like you say, if there are people stuck living in a highrise downtown because they can't afford to leave, then they can just say so when they answer the poll.
With all due respect, I think you are mixing into the equation a lot of other factors. For example, if I could live near downtown in an affordable single-family home in a safe, well-kept, integrated neighborhood, I would prefer that to living in a high-rise or even living out in the suburbs. Unfortunately, that type of neighborhood doesn't exist.
I guess the problem I'm having is with the "preference" aspect of the question. People can only have a preference from the options available. Unfortunately, the city of Detroit has limited options. You can either live in a high-rise in or near downtown that is relatively safe due to security guards and limited access, or you can live in an unsafe neighborhood.
Between the safe suburbs and the safe downtown, you have an expanse of area that few people "prefer" living in.
To get a truer assessment of preference, you would have to phrase it something like this:
Where would you prefer to live?
1. Downtown, in an apartment/condo building
2. In the city, in a very safe, well-kept, integrated single-family-home neighborhood with good schools and city services (if it existed)
3. In the suburbs
4. Out in the country
And I would bet the response would be:
1. 2%
2. 90%
3. 5%
4. 3%
With all due respect, I think you are mixing into the equation a lot of other factors. For example, if I could live near downtown in an affordable single-family home in a safe, well-kept, integrated neighborhood, I would prefer that to living in a high-rise or even living out in the suburbs. Unfortunately, that type of neighborhood doesn't exist.
I guess the problem I'm having is with the "preference" aspect of the question. People can only have a preference from the options available. Unfortunately, the city of Detroit has limited options. You can either live in a high-rise in or near downtown that is relatively safe due to security guards and limited access, or you can live in an unsafe neighborhood.
Between the safe suburbs and the safe downtown, you have an expanse of area that few people "prefer" living in.
To get a truer assessment of preference, you would have to phrase it something like this:
Where would you prefer to live?
1. Downtown, in an apartment/condo building
2. In the city, in a very safe, well-kept, integrated single-family-home neighborhood with good schools and city services (if it existed)
3. In the suburbs
4. Out in the country
And I would bet the response would be:
1. 2%
2. 90%
3. 5%
4. 3%
Okay, well, in the time it took you to criticize my poll, you could have just created your own poll and asked those questions. Like I said, I was trying to see (1) whereabouts most people lived, and (2) generally what their housing preference is, i.e. dense urban downtown, city, or suburbs. My poll isn't asking where one wants to live, it merely asks where one actually lives. I had to separate out "greater downtown" from "City of Detroit" to get a basic idea of who is living in denser urban areas versus those living in city neighborhoods. People living in the suburbs probably live in low density areas, so no distinction is necessary other than basic geography, i.e. eastside versus downriver. Additionally, I hate to rain on your sample poll above, but it is far from scientific with all those qualifiers built into choice #2, and your projected results are nothing but your own guesses. I doubt national stats would even mimic your results.
Seeing as this is a forum, people are more than welcome to explain their vote. Those who voted "City of Detroit" can explain that they although they live in Detroit, they'd prefer somewhere else. Same goes for everyone else. A simple poll can only accomplish so much. I don't think I was overreaching by trying to get a rough estimate of how many people live close to downtown. I guess we can agree to disagree as to whether or not those who do actually prefer to live in high density, or not. I will assume they do prefer it because, I prefer it, and because most people who live in greater downtown could afford to live elsewhere if they so desired... which implies that they made a choice based on preference. Geeze oh pete's.
Okay, ForStarters, I'll drop the matter since I'm not making myself clear. I would be interested in hearing your conclusions from this survey, though. If you're only attempting to prove that the people who live in downtown high-rises want to live there, I would totally agree with you. (Still not sure what this has to do with your poll though. If no one reported living in downtown, that wouldn't disprove that people want to live there.)
I live in the Detroit Zoo area, I have lived in mexican town, hamtramck, and northwest detroit over the years. I stay near woodward and love it because it is centralized enough where i'm close 2 the city but far enough away from the problems. I would and will probably move back 2 the city at some point, if I stay in the southeast michigan area. If I lived In the city limits again, I would move downtown,wayne state,woodbridge,corktown,or hamtramck. The other nice areas I wouldnot be able 2 afford in the near future.
Last edited by oddz313; 12-07-2010 at 11:17 PM..
Reason: additions
Ofc I live in Royal Oak, but it's not exactly a northern suburb. I voted inner-ring suburb because usually around here the term constitutes urban places south of 14 Mile (including Madison Heights, Berkley, Southfield, Roseville, etc.) - Northern suburbs are more like Rochester Hills, Pontiac, the Bloomfields and Waterford - that area.
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