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Well, I'm glad to see that you know more white people than I do and therefore feel you are able to refute what I've said. But it's been my experience that the overwhelming proportion of white people do not believe that black people are inferior genetically (what I would define as "racism"), but instead believe that the shortcomings of some blacks lies in their social dysfunction which has nothing to do with genetics (what I would call "pragmatic observation of social behavior"). Fortunately, there are a growing number of blacks who refuse to sit around in the ghetto demanding justice for past wrongs, and have gone out to be a part of the world outside the ghetto. They have disproved all the self-pitying lies of the ever-diminishing number of blacks who want to believe that all their social problems can be attributed to the traces of racism of white people.
Yes, there are racists in all races and racism has played a part in making Detroit what it is, but it is self-defeating for blacks to continually bringing the issue to the forefront. The anger should not be directed at whites for injustices imposed in the past, but at fellow blacks for injustices imposed in the present. Black communities are not socially dysfunctional because some white guys out in the suburbs are racist; they are dysfunctional because some black guys in the city hate their own people more than those white guys ever could. Unfortunately, black people who try to inspire other blacks to rise above their present condition are forced to "live in the closet" for fear of being disowned by their fellow blacks.
I never stated or implied that I know more white people than you. Neither you nor I can lay claim to knowing even .01% of white people, despite you being white yourself. What I am saying is that white society has a long, long history of being proponents of the doctrine of racial supremacy and inferiority. The question is at what point did all those believers die off or change their beliefs? Those beliefs were hundreds of years in the making and now all of a sudden we are to believe that it has been reduced to irrelevancy?
I don’t understand how blacks can have any sort of social dysfunction, unrelated to a history of being oppressed racially, that whites don’t have in degree or kind. You see, it’s to make statements like you did, claiming that you don’t believe in genetic inferiority, however logical deduction leaves doubt on such claims. Why? The reason being is that when one eliminates the external, they are only left with the internal. It’s binary. It can only be one or the other and since many whites are hell bent on disqualifying past and present racism for the current unequal status of blacks, there is nothing left but the nature of being black. Blacks are NOT practicing African culture. The language, religion and customs were all created and evolved in America and unless you can control for oppression, you cannot claim that it is some dysfunction endemic to blacks.
I don’t think black people sit around demanding justice for past wrongs anymore than whites sit around blaming their condition on their opposition political party. I hear white people all the time whining about how the Democrats ruined this or how the Republicans ruined this, as an explanation for various crises this country is now experiencing. There are millions of white people out of work and many of them are blaming someone other than themselves for their plight. When unemployment was high for blacks…..it was attributed to laziness. Now that unemployment has risen for whites, it’s not seen as a personal shortcoming, but rather, a structural problem with the economy. There used to be this notion of “infinite opportunity” for those who are simply willing to work. Well, tell that to the hundreds of thousands unemployed whites folks in Michigan. Opportunity has never been infinite and if people see blacks as lazy and irresponsible you are not going to want to hire them.
The only time its self defeating to EXPLAIN how a condition manifested is when those with POWER have a vested interest in it NOT being explained. Truth should never be a negative, but it is a negative when the receiver of the explanation is unrighteous. The righteous embrace truth while the unrighteous are made uncomfortable by it. Hence, it is easy to find the unrighteous by their reaction to truth. Truth is divisive often and truth often leads to a step back. However, only through truth can one or a society leap forward.
Well, I just composed a long, detailed response to your post, but it vanished when I previewed it, and I don't feel like retyping it, so let me just ask you this: for how many years are blacks going to use past oppressions as an excuse for why they should not improve as a culture? Are blacks 300 years from now going to say "We've been oppressed for 600 years, so how can you expect anything better out of us?"
I don't deny that whites oppressed blacks in the past (or that whites oppressed whites or that blacks oppressed blacks), but I have never oppressed blacks, therefore the continual use of that argument rings hollow to me. And I've known enough successful black people to know that they, too, have not accepted it as a valid excuse.
I never stated or implied that I know more white people than you. Neither you nor I can lay claim to knowing even .01% of white people, despite you being white yourself. What I am saying is that white society has a long, long history of being proponents of the doctrine of racial supremacy and inferiority. The question is at what point did all those believers die off or change their beliefs? Those beliefs were hundreds of years in the making and now all of a sudden we are to believe that it has been reduced to irrelevancy?
I don’t understand how blacks can have any sort of social dysfunction, unrelated to a history of being oppressed racially, that whites don’t have in degree or kind. You see, it’s to make statements like you did, claiming that you don’t believe in genetic inferiority, however logical deduction leaves doubt on such claims. Why? The reason being is that when one eliminates the external, they are only left with the internal. It’s binary. It can only be one or the other and since many whites are hell bent on disqualifying past and present racism for the current unequal status of blacks, there is nothing left but the nature of being black. Blacks are NOT practicing African culture. The language, religion and customs were all created and evolved in America and unless you can control for oppression, you cannot claim that it is some dysfunction endemic to blacks.
I don’t think black people sit around demanding justice for past wrongs anymore than whites sit around blaming their condition on their opposition political party. I hear white people all the time whining about how the Democrats ruined this or how the Republicans ruined this, as an explanation for various crises this country is now experiencing. There are millions of white people out of work and many of them are blaming someone other than themselves for their plight. When unemployment was high for blacks…..it was attributed to laziness. Now that unemployment has risen for whites, it’s not seen as a personal shortcoming, but rather, a structural problem with the economy. There used to be this notion of “infinite opportunity” for those who are simply willing to work. Well, tell that to the hundreds of thousands unemployed whites folks in Michigan. Opportunity has never been infinite and if people see blacks as lazy and irresponsible you are not going to want to hire them.
The only time its self defeating to EXPLAIN how a condition manifested is when those with POWER have a vested interest in it NOT being explained. Truth should never be a negative, but it is a negative when the receiver of the explanation is unrighteous. The righteous embrace truth while the unrighteous are made uncomfortable by it. Hence, it is easy to find the unrighteous by their reaction to truth. Truth is divisive often and truth often leads to a step back. However, only through truth can one or a society leap forward.
One of these days you might want to wake up and smell the coffee instead of whining about all this alleged, and it is alleged, oppression.
You mentioned redlining as a tool of segregation. Redlining was a practice based on nothing more than sound fiscal policy. Why write high risk loans in bad neighborhoods when you can write low risk ones. There was nothing nefarious about it - it was business plain and simple.
The reason Whites didn't sell their homes to Blacks was because when Blacks move in, property values plummet and it was seen as a crappy thing to do to your neighbors. Once again, there was no concerted legal action to keep Blacks and Whites separate - it was just the reality of the situation.
The reason cops pull over Blacks more often are numerous but again none of this amounts to segregation. One reason is that when someone's presence suggests possible wrong doing, they tend to get pulled over. The same happens to white kids in black neighborhoods where drug dealing is common. The cops know why they are there. The sad fact is that Blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime. So I guess one could just as easily argue they "segregate" themselves through their conduct.
With all the whining you are doing, you might want to stop and consider why, if "oppression" is what keeps Blacks down, the same isn't true of any other group. Jews came here in the wake of WWII and the holocaust and even those who lost their entire families managed to thrive in America. The Chaldians came from horrible persecution in Iraq and struggled to make it here in America. Now, they are quite successful as a group. Many immigrants move here not speaking English and can not even legally work and they manage to escape poverty. One ethnic group after another comes here, starts at the bottom and faces the same challenges that Blacks do but manage to lift themselves out of poverty. But the Blacks, unlike any other group just seem hopelessly mired down in their own self pity. Even when the rest of us bend over backward to advance them through affirmative action, only a handful succeed.
The fact is, all the stuff you whine about is ancient history. If Blacks today really wished to succeed and were willing to put forth the effort, they would find that not only has the road already been paved for them, but they will get a free ride to their destination.
With a screen name like "Indenturedservant" it is no wonder you have such an unrealistically pessimistic attitude. If anything is oppressing Blacks in this country, it is attitudes such as yours.
I'm a first time user of this forum, and I signed up today to get learn of other's experiences/viewpoints about MYYYYYY topic (hint! hint!) But poor junior member, 1st time user... I have no replies lol... so i will comment here...
I haven't read all the way through this, but one thing i read from an OLD posting from Red Wings Fan was that generally people want to live with their own race. But in my opinion, it's more about class, than race. I've observed two extremes....Whites who have had minimal contact with Blacks (or other minorities) and Blacks (or other minorities) who've had minimal contact with Whites. A White person who has always lived, worked, played amongst their own MAY be more hesitant about a Black person moving to the area, even if that person is professional, keeps their lawn up, etc. And a Black person, who has barely left the inner city of Detroit may not feel comfortable around Whites, even if the Whites are more than willing to embrace them, and not racist at all.
I think for Asians, Arabs, Blacks and other minorities....they are just that. Minorities! And used to having 7 whites in a room with them only. Many Whites, just due to where they live,work, play have NEVER had to be the minority or even in a mixed environment long term. So it is a harder adjustment for them to feel comfortable not being the majority in their neighborhood.
As for myself... I don't care if you're blue as a smurf...there is trailer trash and "ghetto" in ALL races...and that's just who I don't want to live next to. If you're working/professional, etc. and raising your children to respect the community...then I welcome you to the neighborhood. I have noticed that the higher the incomes get for certain people... let's say $250,000-$1,000,000 they very rarely care about color...unless it's green. Mutual respect with others who hold the high dollar like they do, regardless of color.
Well, I just composed a long, detailed response to your post, but it vanished when I previewed it, and I don't feel like retyping it, so let me just ask you this: for how many years are blacks going to use past oppressions as an excuse for why they should not improve as a culture? Are blacks 300 years from now going to say "We've been oppressed for 600 years, so how can you expect anything better out of us?"
I don't deny that whites oppressed blacks in the past (or that whites oppressed whites or that blacks oppressed blacks), but I have never oppressed blacks, therefore the continual use of that argument rings hollow to me. And I've known enough successful black people to know that they, too, have not accepted it as a valid excuse.
I am not qualified to tell you how long something will last, given what black people experienced for centuries. However, I will say this. It will not take more or less time than it would take any other racial group recovering from such a history. In other words, it will take a NORMATIVE HUMAN time to recover....nothing more and nothing less. Just like there is a normative human recovery time to a broken leg......there is a normative recovery time for a people and culture that was broken....to heal. Its as simple as this: If one believes blacks are recovering in less than normative time...they believe in black inferiority, for why would the black race have a greater propensity to make excuses and lag in recovery than whites or others?
@ the subsequent posters
This country has a long, long documented history of negative white attitudes towards black people, which included (but not limited to) the doctrine of intellectual inferiority, behavioral inferiority, laziness, irresponsibility, violent....etc. There is no need to try to sugar coat the reasons why whites separated from blacks to make it seem non racial....so that you can convince yourself that you or your parents are or were not racist. No matter how far back you go in history you will find white people rationalizing things that impacted blacks negatively....to make it socially acceptable by making their beliefs and actions seem MORAL. Every generation had their rationalization for the things they did that impacted blacks negatively and the current generation is no different. All you are doing is trying to rationalize it in a way that is SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO THE TIMES. Every generation did it and you are doing it.
Finally....I never shot or robbed anyone.....so I cannot relate to fear of black crime.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-30-2010 at 07:21 AM..
Because when you can drag out the same old victimization argument every time you want something, you gain power by doing so.
The point is this. If not for the victimization.....there would be no grounds for excuses. Hences, victimization creates a HUMAN reaction and hence if other races were victimized, in degree and kind, they would have a no lesser or greater propensity for making excuses. There is NOHTING about being black that would account for a higher propensity of excuse making. Rather, it is a and the HUMAN response to a long history of victimization. Its not a response endemic to blacks...only endemic to that type of human experience, which befell upon blacks. The primary reason that any condition is more acute in blacks relative to other groups is due to the degree that certain experiences and conditions were more acute for blacks.....as a result of racism. Its a no brainer. Its like why have the incidence of certain cancers and birth defects been higher in populations whether there have been nucliear contamination juxtaposed with population with no or less degrees of contamination? Of course the companies or entities responsible for the contamination will try to tell the people living in the impacted area that its not the result of radiation.......but lifestyle chooses of those living in the area. Why would they be told that? Its simple....the fear/cost of responsiblity.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-30-2010 at 09:43 AM..
The jews have been victimized, enslaved, slaughtered and treated with bigotry. Even in early Detroit they were treated poorly. Yet they maintained their sense of family, hopped through 12th street, NW Detroit, Oak Park, Southfield to West Bloomfield in a single generation. Today they dominate the socio-economic scale (along with hindus). All cultures are not equal in that respect.
American blacks have had additional impediments but some of the wounds they are suffering are self-inflicted. Yet no matter how debased inner city ghetto culture becomes, you'll simply say, "that's the best they can do because of x". That's not a serious analysis. You are avoiding the variables that might make you question your own prejudices.
Quote:
Finally....I never shot or robbed anyone.....so I cannot relate to fear of black crime.
Your refusal to examine the statistics won't make the black middle-class come back. Or the white.
I'm curious as to your opinion on why it is that many blacks are able to live productive, successful lives, while some others it seems are unable or unwilling to. For example, I live in the wealthiest predominately African American county in America. While there are certainly some areas here that suffer from crime and poverty (just like in every large jurisdiction in the country), there are also many areas, like Mitchellville, Upper Marlboro, Woodmore, Fort Washington, Accokeek, Rosaryville, etc... that consist of majority black neighborhoods where the median household income is above $100,000 per year. How is it that the people in these areas, while not ignoring the injustices of the past, were able to become successful without dwelling on the past to the point that it impeded their progress in life? What did they do that others should be doing?
I am not qualified to tell you how long something will last, given what black people experienced for centuries. However, I will say this. It will not take more or less time than it would take any other racial group recovering from such a history. In other words, it will take a NORMATIVE HUMAN time to recover....nothing more and nothing less. Just like there is a normative human recovery time to a broken leg......there is a normative recovery time for a people and culture that was broken....to heal. Its as simple as this: If one believes blacks are recovering in less than normative time...they believe in black inferiority, for why would the black race have a greater propensity to make excuses and lag in recovery than whites or others?
@ the subsequent posters
This country has a long, long documented history of negative white attitudes towards black people, which included (but not limited to) the doctrine of intellectual inferiority, behavioral inferiority, laziness, irresponsibility, violent....etc. There is no need to try to sugar coat the reasons why whites separated from blacks to make it seem non racial....so that you can convince yourself that you or your parents are or were not racist. No matter how far back you go in history you will find white people rationalizing things that impacted blacks negatively....to make it socially acceptable by making their beliefs and actions seem MORAL. Every generation had their rationalization for the things they did that impacted blacks negatively and the current generation is no different. All you are doing is trying to rationalize it in a way that is SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO THE TIMES. Every generation did it and you are doing it.
Finally....I never shot or robbed anyone.....so I cannot relate to fear of black crime.
Complete rubbish! The old "legacy of slavery" saw has been thoroughly debunked. In fact, the social health of Blacks peaked in the 50s and has been on a rapid decline. Read Thomas Sowell, race and Culture.
And you are guilty of specious reasoning with your "either or" fallacy about people having to accept that the conduct of Blacks is the same as everyone else or be guilty of racism. There are many factors regarding which groups excel in given areas and why. The conclusion of "inferiority" is not the only conclusion.
There may be any number of reasons why Blacks the world over tend to be less productive than other groups. To answer that question one first needs to look at the various cultural situations and make the assumption that more production is necessarily better. There are many indigenous people who are perfectly happy living a hunter gatherer lifestyle. Other's have a burning desire to explore new worlds and even new planets. It just so happens that our society is made up of more of the latter so that is what is valued and what is necessary.
In the end, the best thing you could do for your self is to stop with the victimization bit. You can sit here and dwell on the past but it isn't going to change the fact that Blacks today are by and large responsible for their own problems. If you don't buy things you can't afford and pay your bills on time, you will be able to get a loan when you need one. If you don't dress and act like an ignorant low life, people won't treat you like one. If you work hard and don't do things that get you in trouble, you won't wind up in trouble. This stuff really isn't rocket science.
If more black role models would preach this type of message, things would improve. But preaching the message of white oppression, victimization and helplessness only breeds contempt and hostility and causes resentment, poor attitudes, dishonesty, a poor work ethic and a whole host of other self defeating thoughts.
Why is it so hard to see that as long as people have hostile attitudes and conduct themselves inappropriately, other people aren't going to want to be around them? Would you want to be around a bunch of KKK rednecks? Of course not. So, why would you expect white people to want to be around some thug black guy who acts like an animal and wears his pants below his ass. I know I sure as hell don't. If that offends you, well I guess that's just to damn bad.
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lol... so i will comment here... 
