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The point is this. If not for the victimization.....there would be no grounds for excuses. Hences, victimization creates a HUMAN reaction and hence if other races were victimized, in degree and kind, they would have a no lesser or greater propensity for making excuses. There is NOHTING about being black that would account for a higher propensity of excuse making. Rather, it is a and the HUMAN response to a long history of victimization. Its not a response endemic to blacks...only endemic to that type of human experience, which befell upon blacks. The primary reason that any condition is more acute in blacks relative to other groups is due to the degree that certain experiences and conditions were more acute for blacks.....as a result of racism. Its a no brainer. Its like why have the incidence of certain cancers and birth defects been higher in populations whether there have been nucliear contamination juxtaposed with population with no or less degrees of contamination? Of course the companies or entities responsible for the contamination will try to tell the people living in the impacted area that its not the result of radiation.......but lifestyle chooses of those living in the area. Why would they be told that? Its simple....the fear/cost of responsiblity.
This is a theory based solely on your imagination. It has no basis in fact what so ever. You should read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Numerous other ethnic groups have had an uphill battle in Americans. Today, Blacks have affirmative action which makes it easier than others to get into college and to get a job. Try being an illegal Mexican immigrant who doesn't speak English.
And why do you speak of slavery and discrimination as if you have ever experienced it in your life time? When have you ever seen a sign saying "no coloreds" on a restaurant door that wasn't in a museum? You speak as though you grew up on a plantation - did you grow up in the 1800s?
The jews have been victimized, enslaved, slaughtered and treated with bigotry. Even in early Detroit they were treated poorly. Yet they maintained their sense of family, hopped through 12th street, NW Detroit, Oak Park, Southfield to West Bloomfield in a single generation. Today they dominate the socio-economic scale (along with hindus). All cultures are not equal in that respect.
American blacks have had additional impediments but some of the wounds they are suffering are self-inflicted. Yet no matter how debased inner city ghetto culture becomes, you'll simply say, "that's the best they can do because of x". That's not a serious analysis. You are avoiding the variables that might make you question your own prejudices.
Your refusal to examine the statistics won't make the black middle-class come back. Or the white.
Jewish people were not enslaved and slaughtered in the USA. The USA was a place of refuge for the Jews, relative to Europe, where gentiles indeed treated them poorly to such a degree that a country had to be created for them. We send that country Billions of dollars each year and give them all sorts of other assistance. They were paid reparations……and to this day continue to hunt down all involved in their persecution, as well as, NEVER allowing this history of persecution to be forgotten, glossed over, or disrespected. Furthermore, Judaism is a religion, not a race. One cannot simply look at a person and know that they are Jewish, for the most part. Discrimination cannot last unless there is a way of easy identification and or segregation of the out group. Whether one was Jewish or Irish, without an accent or other features that uniquely identified such individuals as belonging to the group, they were able to slip through the cracks of oppression……like very fair skinned (white looking) blacks used to do (it was called “passing”). Finally, it’s most important to realize, again, that blacks are in the land of their oppression and among their oppressors and descendants. Jews in America are not.
There is a lot that black indeed can emulate from the Jewish population, such as the way they support Jewish Businesses and keep their history in the forefront. When Blacks attempt to support other blacks, to lift up black business and the black community…..whites attack it as reverse discrimination and suggest aloud that whites be able to do the same thing. The city of Detroit could not even promote and contribute to the “Africa Town” business district proposed because of backlash from whites in the media. There certainly exist “Jew towns” and “China towns” and “Greek Towns”, as well as others, all over the country. Yet, it seem that a certain segment of the white population is hell bent against blacks being allowed to do anything to promote blacks….unless whites are allowed to promote whites. However, what and who are whites trying to recover from that would warrant the need to promote white businesses? Who oppressed whites to the degree that white poverty is 3 times greater, as well as, other socioeconomic conditions for whites being at the bottom to the degree that whites need to try to promote EQUALITY of conditions by circulating their dollars back into their communities? Hell…that’s what whites do already. Its de facto. In fact…..blacks spend probably 90% of their income in the white communities and at white owned businesses. So let’s cut the BS.
Everyone and every group have wounds that are self inflicted. Hence, as a human TRAIT, why would black people have a greater propensity to self induce their problems than would white people? Obviously if every group has an equal propensity to self inflict problems for themselves, then pointing out that some of black people’s problems are self inflicted is meaningless. No one is arguing that there would not be ANY black poverty, crime, unemployment and the like…..if not for racism. We all know that there is white poverty, crime and unemployment to. So it is simply meaningless to mention that some of blacks problems are self inflicted…..UNLESS one is arguing that black people self inflict problems for themselves MORE THAN OTHERS. To argue the latter is to argue some sort of black inferiority which makes us our own worst enemy.
This is a theory based solely on your imagination. It has no basis in fact what so ever. You should read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Numerous other ethnic groups have had an uphill battle in Americans. Today, Blacks have affirmative action which makes it easier than others to get into college and to get a job. Try being an illegal Mexican immigrant who doesn't speak English.
And why do you speak of slavery and discrimination as if you have ever experienced it in your life time? When have you ever seen a sign saying "no coloreds" on a restaurant door that wasn't in a museum? You speak as though you grew up on a plantation - did you grow up in the 1800s?
My goal with people like you is simple. Its to EXPOSE your true thesis, which is black inferiority. I really don't care what you believe or that you refute my thesis. I just want to make it CLEAR that you are arguing black inferiority.....which is the deductive result of eliminating any external explanation or experiences for current racial descrepancies. Hence, I am not trying to change what you believe.....I am simply trying to EXPOSE what you believe....which is white supremacy over blacks. You should practice some courage with those convictions.
I'm curious as to your opinion on why it is that many blacks are able to live productive, successful lives, while some others it seems are unable or unwilling to. For example, I live in the wealthiest predominately African American county in America. While there are certainly some areas here that suffer from crime and poverty (just like in every large jurisdiction in the country), there are also many areas, like Mitchellville, Upper Marlboro, Woodmore, Fort Washington, Accokeek, Rosaryville, etc... that consist of majority black neighborhoods where the median household income is above $100,000 per year. How is it that the people in these areas, while not ignoring the injustices of the past, were able to become successful without dwelling on the past to the point that it impeded their progress in life? What did they do that others should be doing?
Of course this is simply a rhetorical question. Its as if you don't believe in individual variation in experiences (degree if not kind) and or abilities. Not every black family experieces the same thing. My experieces are different from my siblings experiences. We share certain common experiences and have our own unique experiences which have impacted and shaped our lives. I mean.....people don't ask why some Jews survived the Haulocost while others did not and then try to use those who survived to suggest that the others did something wrong and that is why they did not. Its a BS proposition.
That all cultures are equal seems to be your starting position. I don't believe that. I think that if achievement is the goal, then some cultures are simply better at creating wealth than other cultures.
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Jewish people were not enslaved and slaughtered in the USA. The USA was a place of refuge for the Jews, relative to Europe, where gentiles indeed treated them poorly to such a degree that a country had to be created for them. We send that country Billions of dollars each year and give them all sorts of other assistance. They were paid reparations……and to this day continue to hunt down all involved in their persecution, as well as, NEVER allowing this history of persecution to be forgotten, glossed over, or disrespected. Furthermore, Judaism is a religion, not a race. One cannot simply look at a person and know that they are Jewish, for the most part. Discrimination cannot last unless there is a way of easy identification and or segregation of the out group. Whether one was Jewish or Irish, without an accent or other features that uniquely identified such individuals as belonging to the group, they were able to slip through the cracks of oppression……like very fair skinned (white looking) blacks used to do (it was called “passing”). Finally, it’s most important to realize, again, that blacks are in the land of their oppression and among their oppressors and descendants. Jews in America are not.
Jews in America did see discrimination. The jewish hospital systems were set up as a place for jewish doctors to practice because they werent able to find employment in gentile hospitals. Jews were excluded from many other positions as well. People in the first half of the 20th century in Detroit did keep track of things like that. They knew who the jewish kids were, knew where the neighborhoods were, knew what jewish names sounded like, etc. One of my grandparents was fiercely anti-semitic and that was not an unusual position at the time.
Right here in Detroit's suburbs we had Father Coughlin preaching on national radio that the Jews were troublemakers and worse. Right here in Detroit there were neighborhoods that would not sell to Jews. Hudson's ran employment ads that said, "only gentiles need apply". There was more than this as well.
Jews were discriminated against. They simply won anyway.
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Everyone and every group have wounds that are self inflicted. Hence, as a human TRAIT, why would black people have a greater propensity to self induce their problems than would white people? Obviously if every group has an equal propensity to self inflict problems for themselves, then pointing out that some of black people’s problems are self inflicted is meaningless.
There is no guarantee that every culture will make exactly as many missteps as another. Some will make more, some less. But when inner city black culture is already on the ropes thanks to historical inequality, you don't have a lot of latitude for making mistakes. Fixing them should be a priority.
I'm curious as to your opinion on why it is that many blacks are able to live productive, successful lives, while some others it seems are unable or unwilling to. For example, I live in the wealthiest predominately African American county in America. While there are certainly some areas here that suffer from crime and poverty (just like in every large jurisdiction in the country), there are also many areas, like Mitchellville, Upper Marlboro, Woodmore, Fort Washington, Accokeek, Rosaryville, etc... that consist of majority black neighborhoods where the median household income is above $100,000 per year. How is it that the people in these areas, while not ignoring the injustices of the past, were able to become successful without dwelling on the past to the point that it impeded their progress in life? What did they do that others should be doing?
I don't think this is a BS question.... I think anyone who is truly interested in improving the state of the inner city Black community should carefully examine this question.... the answer... it is generational.... I grew up in an area of Detroit, and went to Detroit schools that I'm sure you all would cringe at. I love to give my two cents because I am someone who truly has experienced both life in the inner city, life with a single, mom in poverty, and I've also, as of my adult life experienced suburbia, and more mainstream lifestyles. Also, for about a year I worked with inner city Detroiters 18-30 to help them get into trade schools, etc. What is clear to me, having grown up in it... it is GENERATIONAL!!! I'm talking a 21 year old from one household where no one has even a valid drivers license..and then a toddler from another household who knows their way around an airport like they're a pilot....it's exposure. If someone is not exposed to any sense of normalcy, any sense of how to be a productive citizen, chances are they are not going to thrive. Even if a young person grows up in the "ghetto" and has some type of exposure to culture, travel, education beyond public school...it can help mold their future...that's what happen to me an plenty others, that's the difference (along with the true desire to want better). But for those who can't get that exposure when they need it... as a child/teen...it causes issues...and who is to blame? The parents!!!! and why? becasue of THEIR parents!!! So yes, the 1st few generations were behind due to slavery... but at some point... I'd say within the last 40 years...the problem is not that too many people who have not been exposed to success themselves...keep having babies...so the ugly, scary question... is how do we stop THAT! You know, to adopt a child, you have to go through a lot... you have to prove you can be a good parent.... why isn't the same policy in place to even have a baby of your own! I know it seems harsh to some to almost say we need to dictate who can and when they can have a child, but something must be done! I feel it's child abuse to bring kids into this world when they don't stand a chance based on the parent they are about to have.
Of course this is simply a rhetorical question. Its as if you don't believe in individual variation in experiences (degree if not kind) and or abilities. Not every black family experieces the same thing. My experieces are different from my siblings experiences. We share certain common experiences and have our own unique experiences which have impacted and shaped our lives. I mean.....people don't ask why some Jews survived the Haulocost while others did not and then try to use those who survived to suggest that the others did something wrong and that is why they did not. Its a BS proposition.
I brought up that example as a counter to your argument that one must accept that either (a) ALL problems that ALL blacks face today are a result of past oppression, or that (b) blacks have some genetic deficiency causing them to experience these problems. In my experience, neither of these is true. It seems to me that the culture and mindset that some people choose to be a part of plays a large role in their problems. For example, Person A belongs to a group that values education, personal responsibility, has a stable family/upbringing, and passes these values along to their children. Person B belongs to a group that places no emphasis on education, places no emphasis on staying out of prison/jail, more often than not is raised by one parent, and plays a minimal role, if any, in raising their children. Which person do you think would grow to be happier, more productive, and successful in America today? Both of those groups are segments of American culture: neither restricts membership to people of a certain race or ethnicity. People can choose which one they wish to belong to. People who choose Group A (like the people living in the areas I mentioned in my last post) can go on to have happy, successful lives. People who choose Group B, more often than not, end up under-or-un employed, incarcerated, reliant on others for their well-being, and blaming others for their problems.
That all cultures are equal seems to be your starting position. I don't believe that. I think that if achievement is the goal, then some cultures are simply better at creating wealth than other cultures.
Jews in America did see discrimination. The jewish hospital systems were set up as a place for jewish doctors to practice because they werent able to find employment in gentile hospitals. Jews were excluded from many other positions as well. People in the first half of the 20th century in Detroit did keep track of things like that. They knew who the jewish kids were, knew where the neighborhoods were, knew what jewish names sounded like, etc. One of my grandparents was fiercely anti-semitic and that was not an unusual position at the time.
Right here in Detroit's suburbs we had Father Coughlin preaching on national radio that the Jews were troublemakers and worse. Right here in Detroit there were neighborhoods that would not sell to Jews. Hudson's ran employment ads that said, "only gentiles need apply". There was more than this as well.
Jews were discriminated against. They simply won anyway.
There is no guarantee that every culture will make exactly as many missteps as another. Some will make more, some less. But when inner city black culture is already on the ropes thanks to historical inequality, you don't have a lot of latitude for making mistakes. Fixing them should be a priority.
Lets talk about "culture". Let me ask you this: "Is what blacks practice in America "African Culture"? No....any native African will tell you that culturally African Americans do not practice an indigenous African culture. Now...they arrived in America with African names, African language, African religion, African customs and normative African beliefs and behavior. That was systematically and violently stripped from black people in order to make them ideal slaves and to break them. Thus, what kills me is this idea that there exist a "black culture" in America that somehow is not the product of what blacks experienced in America. There is no black culture in America.....ONLY AMERICAN MADE CULTURES.
If you ask me culture is used as a euphamism for race. People feel they can lament that blacks have an inferior culture....without the stigma of being a racist. In other words, to focus on the "culture" of black people is not to focus on the race of black people as if the doctrine of cultural supremacy is morally superior to the doctrine of racial supremacy...or at least less "charged" or stigmatized. The culture that manifest in blacks in America was created and evolved seperately as a resulte of different treatment and the isolation of segregation. America created and incubated seperate societies....one black and one white with different laws and rule to facilitate it creating what you refer to as "cultures".
I brought up that example as a counter to your argument that one must accept that either (a) ALL problems that ALL blacks face today are a result of past oppression, or that (b) blacks have some genetic deficiency causing them to experience these problems. In my experience, neither of these is true. It seems to me that the culture and mindset that some people choose to be a part of plays a large role in their problems. For example, Person A belongs to a group that values education, personal responsibility, has a stable family/upbringing, and passes these values along to their children. Person B belongs to a group that places no emphasis on education, places no emphasis on staying out of prison/jail, more often than not is raised by one parent, and plays a minimal role, if any, in raising their children. Which person do you think would grow to be happier, more productive, and successful in America today? Both of those groups are segments of American culture: neither restricts membership to people of a certain race or ethnicity. People can choose which one they wish to belong to. People who choose Group A (like the people living in the areas I mentioned in my last post) can go on to have happy, successful lives. People who choose Group B, more often than not, end up under-or-un employed, incarcerated, reliant on others for their well-being, and blaming others for their problems.
No. I never presented the proposition that you claim I did. That is called the straw man fallacy. I NEVER stated ALL problems faced by blacks is attributed to anyone thing. I never dismissed that blacks don’t have problems of their own making. Maybe you think I don’t realize that whites have problems too. There are whites who are poor, there are whites having kids of wedlock, there are whites that unemployed, there are whites who commit murder and robbery, there are whites who do not do well in school. White does not equal perfection and the absence of slavery, Jim Crow and discrimination would not create perfection in the black race either. The absence of those things from blacks condition would likely result in a socioeconomic status very similar and equal to what white socioeconomic statistics are today. Hence, my argument is that the socio economic statistical skew between blacks and whites are the result of mostly past racism, but also present racism as well. Never have I EVER argued that ALL black people’s problems are the result of mistreatment by whites. Never! It is an assault on ones intelligence to even assumes that I would argue something so asinine and obviously factually inaccurate. Therefore, to correct the flaw in your restatement of my proposition: The socio economic statistical difference between blacks and whites in this country is the result of past and present racism and to argue that it not is to argue black racial inferiority.
There are cultures that are more successful than others within the United States. That's simply reality. East Indians and Jews are well represented socioeconomically. That's not race, it's culture. And it's not because the nation favored them.
Sure, the jews could cry about not getting hired at Hudsons but instead they ran around discrimination and found careers where they could succeed. When hospitals wouldnt hire them, they made their own hospitals. When Birmingham and the Grosse Pointes wouldnt let them live there, jewish lawyers fought the covenants.
The point is that inner city blacks must help themselves. They must deal with the past and find a way forward. If they remain poor for another three generations, no one else will care. It's up to them.
I know you want to insist that I'm a racist but I'm not.
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You know, to adopt a child, you have to go through a lot... you have to prove you can be a good parent.... why isn't the same policy in place to even have a baby of your own! I know it seems harsh to some to almost say we need to dictate who can and when they can have a child, but something must be done! I feel it's child abuse to bring kids into this world when they don't stand a chance based on the parent they are about to have.
