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I also do not buy the political corruption point of view either. I mean......New York City and Chicago popularized political corruption in America and it never seemed to have the impact that political corrupstion is blamed for in Detroit. I mean, Kwame was brought down for what........essentially having an affair and lying about it. If you look at the history of corruption in Chicago......there should be about 10 people living in Chicago today if corruption is the root of Detroits problems.
You need to remember that in Chicago and New York the "coruption" was steering contracts to certain individuals WHO ACTUALLY DID THE WORK. Kwami and Coleman stuffed it in their pockets.
Yeah.....I am sure you have evidence of that. Actually I am sure that is just what you like to believe. Furthermore, how do you know Chicago and NY mayors were not pocketing cash?
Yeah.....I am sure you have evidence of that. Actually I am sure that is just what you like to believe. Furthermore, how do you know Chicago and NY mayors were not pocketing cash?
In Chicago, there were tons of examples where high ranking city government officials did this, and were completely tolerated and looked the other way by the Daleys.
Both Daleys themselves were less interested in living it up, they were really more interested in power. Thats why they looked the other way.
The book "Boss" is a great book written in the 70s by Mike Royko that talks about the first Daleys administration.
He lived in a simple brick bungalow but had more power to crush community opposition to his plans than any other mayor.
I mean you can be corrupt and competent....
or corrupt and a total loser.
Obviously, racism is a given in Detroit. So is corruption.
If Nelson Mandela had done to South Africa what Mugabe is doing in Zimbabwe, (and to a large degree Coleman Young did to Detroit) South Africa would be a disaster too.
There is such a thing as institutionalized corruption by the power hungry, incompetent, cruel. On the other hand, you can also have very intelligent, competent and fairly responsible leaders who also cut corners and pocket the difference, but they still have a long-term vision and get things DONE.
Anyone notice that although the man (Mandela) endured decades of CRUEL punishment, once he got into power he wasn't out to GET EVEN.
There is a lot of BS going on in South Africa, and he shrewdly keeps his mouth shut.
A lot of South African Black politicians remind me of Detroit's Black politicians, but the Whites aren't running scared. Why?
Well, firstly, Mandela wisely accepted that revenge and getting rid of Whites would be suicide, and the Whites wisely accept that it'll take a while for the Black community to grow decent political leadership.
Meanwhile, there are some real clowns (who happen to be Black) running around Pretoria, but there is very little "revenge politics" vis-a-vis the Whites (considering their recent nasty legacy).
I mean, South Africa is still one of the favorite overseas emigration destination for wealthy Brits.
I mean you can be corrupt and competent....
or corrupt and a total loser.
Obviously, racism is a given in Detroit. So is corruption.
If Nelson Mandela had done to South Africa what Mugabe is doing in Zimbabwe, (and to a large degree Coleman Young did to Detroit) South Africa would be a disaster too.
There is such a thing as institutionalized corruption by the power hungry, incompetent, cruel. On the other hand, you can also have very intelligent, competent and fairly responsible leaders who also cut corners and pocket the difference, but they still have a long-term vision and get things DONE.
Anyone notice that although the man (Mandela) endured decades of CRUEL punishment, once he got into power he wasn't out to GET EVEN.
There is a lot of BS going on in South Africa, and he shrewdly keeps his mouth shut.
A lot of South African Black politicians remind me of Detroit's Black politicians, but the Whites aren't running scared. Why?
Well, firstly, Mandela wisely accepted that revenge and getting rid of Whites would be suicide, and the Whites wisely accept that it'll take a while for the Black community to grow decent political leadership.
Meanwhile, there are some real clowns (who happen to be Black) running around Pretoria, but there is very little "revenge politics" vis-a-vis the Whites (considering their recent nasty legacy).
I mean, South Africa is still one of the favorite overseas emigration destination for wealthy Brits.
Yes, incompetence can be a problem, but ASSUMING incompetence, when there is none, can be a greater problem. When people assume incompetence it promotes failure because people, who invest with their dollars and feet into a community, believe that not only will they not get a return back on their investment, they will actually experience a loss. Hence, the assumption creates a self fulfilling prophecy because the result of what was produced during an administration looks like the individual is incompetent, when the truth is that other pulled the rug from other them due to their assuming incompetence.
I would like to know what evidence you have of the incompetence of any Detroit mayor….other than their incompetence at being white or incompetent in the ability to bow down to racism and keeping hush hush about it. Massa will punish such slaves and any that try to fight back will be whipped economically by disinvestment, negative propaganda against you and the like.
Yes, incompetence can be a problem, but ASSUMING incompetence, when there is none, can be a greater problem. When people assume incompetence it promotes failure because people, who invest with their dollars and feet into a community, believe that not only will they not get a return back on their investment, they will actually experience a loss. Hence, the assumption creates a self fulfilling prophecy because the result of what was produced during an administration looks like the individual is incompetent, when the truth is that other pulled the rug from other them due to their assuming incompetence.
I would like to know what evidence you have of the incompetence of any Detroit mayor….other than their incompetence at being white or incompetent in the ability to bow down to racism and keeping hush hush about it. Massa will punish such slaves and any that try to fight back will be whipped economically by disinvestment, negative propaganda against you and the like.
Look. I am a center-lefty, but I like to exercise some common sense.
What is so DISAPPOINTING about a huge % of Black intelligentsia is that they like to blame "the Man" for all their communal problems and leadership's shortcomings.
That attitude, that sort of blindness, is just as self-destructive and defeatist as the negative attitude (vis-a-vis Detroit) so present on so many of the threads of this forum.
Look, even at the level of dire poverty, hillbilly Black society doesn't always function the same as my hillbilly White society. How do I know that?
First hand experience.
In many ways, it's another world, but it doesn't mean that there aren't points of convergence, common goals and ideals which should bring us all together, and force us to strive for a better, common future.
Let's put it this way, having lived what I've lived, and having experienced first hand what I've experienced, I am not sure that all of Detroit's problems should be blamed on the White man. And that's not like I'm making excuses for all the bigots and racists. It's my personal observations and my own logical conclusion based on what I've seen, lived, read, and studied.
True accountability involves looking at oneself FIRST.
That should apply to the very negative White suburban bigots, as well as the ethnocentric Black apologists for Detroit's failures.
Detroit's not a mess only because it's 90% Black, but it's also not a mess just because Whites deserted it.
Location: Detroit's eastside, downtown Detroit in near future!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Yes, I do not know of many urban school districts that are not labelled as "Poor schools". Many of the reasons given for Detroits decline and problems are experienced in many large urban areas.....without the same result of population drop.
I aslo believe that the constant, constant focus on Detroit problems and bad side only helps fuel problems and the bad side. If you look on the web people love to show images of the run down housing in Detroit and rarely do you see the images of well kept neighborhoods and the miles of them in the city. We constantly here about how bad Crime is as if life in Chicago, LA, Atlanta, Miami and others is utopia. Detroit simply became the city that America loved to use as an example of problems and many residents of Michigan gleefully participated in the onesided focus of negativity. Its free negative advertisement by word of mouth. Negative ads drive people away and positive ads drive people towards the city. It is almost as if people wanted to see the city fail for some reason or they took enjoyment in the problems. I hope that is changed because Detroit is really a Great city with great potential to rebound. All Detroit need is a little positive reinforcement and a lot less denigration. Well.....actually it needs much more than that but it would go a long way if people just stop treating Detroit as a poster child......because that helps make it one.
You couldn't have said it better. The biggest problem is the divide between the burbs and the city IMHO. I know my status says I'm not a Michigander but honestly this is the feeling I have after realizing people in the Metro area are far worst than non Michiganders when downing Detroit smh. I mean I was just in awe at first joining this site and seeing suburbanites in cities with bad reputations (like Cleveland, Baltimore, Buffalo etc) come to the defense and actually try to better city. I mean even if they don't live in the city they are all talking about how great it is, how it has came a long way, going to events and restaurants in the city and doing their part and coming together with the residents of the city for the sole purpose of saving the whole Metro. BUT coming to the Detroit forum where suburbanites literally come on here to deter anybody from even visiting and don't come into the city themselves smh. This region is doomed. "fresh out of college" kids are steadily moving out of the state and the older folks still have the same minset and people still have a "us" vs "them" attitude.
Look. I am a center-lefty, but I like to exercise some common sense.
What is so DISAPPOINTING about a huge % of Black intelligentsia is that they like to blame "the Man" for all their communal problems and leadership's shortcomings.
That attitude, that sort of blindness, is just as self-destructive and defeatist as the negative attitude (vis-a-vis Detroit) so present on so many of the threads of this forum.
Look, even at the level of dire poverty, hillbilly Black society doesn't always function the same as my hillbilly White society. How do I know that?
First hand experience.
In many ways, it's another world, but it doesn't mean that there aren't points of convergence, common goals and ideals which should bring us all together, and force us to strive for a better, common future.
Let's put it this way, having lived what I've lived, and having experienced first hand what I've experienced, I am not sure that all of Detroit's problems should be blamed on the White man. And that's not like I'm making excuses for all the bigots and racists. It's my personal observations and my own logical conclusion based on what I've seen, lived, read, and studied.
True accountability involves looking at oneself FIRST.
That should apply to the very negative White suburban bigots, as well as the ethnocentric Black apologists for Detroit's failures.
Detroit's not a mess only because it's 90% Black, but it's also not a mess just because Whites deserted it.
You are going off on a tangent. There were claims made of incompetence and I simply asked that the claim be backed up by evidence. Things can and do fail despite the most competent leadership. If the nation’s top surgeon cannot save a gunshot patient does that make the surgeon incompetent? It’s easy to arm chair quarterback with popcorn in one hand and beer in the other. Things are much more difficult when you are on the ground in the game.
If you form a city that is a microcosm of white America and form a city that is a microcosm of black American, the reality of those cities will be very different. Why? It’s because poverty nationally is 3 times higher for African Americans. It’s because unemployment is twice as high for African Americans. It’s because wealth is over 10 times less for blacks than whites. It’s because fewer companies and business operate in the black community. Hence, the microcosm municipalities are unequal in their revenue stream from taxes, which come from property values and taxes on the income of businesses and residence.
Think of it this way. A white family buys a 300,000 home. They have a household income of 150,000 and can afford to meet the mortgage payments, keep up the maintenance and add enhancements. Now say that now blacks live in that home and their household income is only 75,000. They can’t afford any maintenance, repairs and certainly not enhancements because they can barely pay the mortgage. Hence, over time entropy decays the property and it looks much worse than when the white family lived there.
It takes money to maintain anything. When Detroit had nearly 2 million people, the majority of which were white and hence higher incomes, wealth and the like, with their businesses here as well, there was enough income to keep up the city and enhance the city. When whites left, leaving the city to blacks, they subtracted billions, maybe even trillions in today’s dollars, from the pool of income available to maintain the city. Yet, it’s expected that the city that “once was” can and should be maintained with those billions or trillion less monies available to maintain it. It’s not incompetence that produces such results. Its disinvestment!
Let’s remember that when Martin Luther King Jr was alive he was hated and despised. He only gained acceptance and respect years after his death. Why was he hated? He was hated because he “spoke TRUTH to power”. The truth hurts and when King spoke the truth it angered many whites. They considered people who spoke such truth as being divisive agitators who only make things worse. They wanted the status quo to remain the same and people like MLK threatened that and them (which is why he was killed). Hence, any black person who spoke truth to power, like Coleman Young, was vilified and hated and retaliated against with the weapon of disinvestment. “We will just take our business elsewhere unless you stop speaking truth to power and bow down like a good Negro”. It was Coleman’s Young unabashed outspokenness on racial matters that helped polarize the area. Said another way, it was Young’s speaking the TRUTH that led to the polarization of WHITES, who became polar with anger that he would not bow down.
Look at American foreign policy for an example. What do we do to leaders who do not bow down to our will? Answer anyone? The answer is that we place sanctions on them. In truth, we don’t place sanction on them, we place sanctions on their country and peoples. In other words, we try to promote the collapse of their economy to the degree that the people will revolt against the leadership and bring it down, making us happy. People wanted Detroit to fail because they wanted to punish the leadership of Detroit for speaking truth to power and not bowing down. It was a conspiracy of like minds. People HATED Coleman Young, and as he as he liked to say, ‘Them sons of itches salivated at my down fall”. Hence, there were constant investigations of corruption and all sorts of things to bring him down and a lot of things that could have happened positive for the city but did not because people did not want it to reflect positive on his leadership. Detroit was sabotaged during the 70’s and 80’s.
“We will just take our business elsewhere unless you stop speaking truth to power and bow down like a good Negro”....
The post all made sense to me, but you could have made the point without the final 4 words, no? Of course, in the back room of people's minds it might have been actually said.
By the way, the only thing that keeps this from happening even more is the extent of power and velocity of money (just like you have said), as well as the aggregate perception of those who have it.
Ex: If your company is publicly quoted, you are more at the whim of deinvestment. If Wall Street perceives negatively your company it is so easy to punish you and drive your price downwards. Sometimes there are valid financial reasons for driving it down, but research suggests they also do it just to show how powerful they are.
Ex2: It's selective exercise of power. Why do we invade some countries which have terrible dictators and other not, etc etc.
There are countless examples of what you have described all over.
The whole money segregation thing results in unsustainbale living environments over large spaces. Since distribution flow won't change, a municipal downsizing is necessary. How well will the downsizing be managed? And how does it increase investment and revenue to mitigate some of the bleeding? Etc etc.
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Massa will punish such slaves and any that try to fight back will be whipped economically by disinvestment, negative propaganda against you and the like.
