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Detroit has been in decline for 65 years. The current state of Detroit is the result of the best thinking over those 65 years. It's not working, you guys.
Education is the key.
Instead of building the rail, the City of Detroit should take the money and extend an offer to pay-off school loans based on residency.
Implement a plan extended to everyone in the U.S.
Do five years time and 1,000 community service hours teaching Metro area illiterates, in the city of Detroit; the City of Detroit pays-off your school loans. The City of Detroit would take over school loan payments when initial residency is confirmed.
Quite an umbrella.
Who is saying this would solve Detroit's problems? Public projects bad for cities?
Some projects are even loss leaders. Profitable businesses use them.
The major cities with these systems have created them with balanced budgets? These cities are seen to have a higher quality of life, in part, BECAUSE OF such amenities. Successful planners know that there are spinoffs to such projects.
You can't wait to fill a bus with passengers before it moves - in the name of profitability.
The problem with these "loss leaders" is that as the popularity of public transit grows, the class of people who need it the least, eg. the wealthy,
end up accessing it more easily than the very poor, who desperately need it, who then get shafted to the poor suburbs....
eg. look what's happening in Toronto, New York, Sao Paulo, Rio....and all over Europe....and the world.
So in the end ....efficient public transit becomes the privilege of the ones who can AFFORD to live along its routes.
Brings to mind Brazil.....where public (and the finest) free universities are chock full of the upper middle class and the wealthy......
'cause the poor kids can't afford the prep schools to GET IN.....and where again...the poor live in the far flung suburbs, with longest commutes.
Because of the high cost of real estate, Toronto's immigrants are increasingly settling outside of city proper......and the major reason is that the children of the suburban middle class are outbidding them in the downtown real estate market. And these suburbs usually have terrible public transit....as they're modeled on American car-burbs.
Last edited by SadieMirsade; 12-20-2011 at 05:07 PM..
Quite an umbrella.
Who is saying this would solve Detroit's problems? Public projects bad for cities?
Some projects are even loss leaders. Profitable businesses use them.
The major cities with these systems have created them with balanced budgets? These cities are seen to have a higher quality of life, in part, BECAUSE OF such amenities. Successful planners know that there are spinoffs to such projects.
You can't wait to fill a bus with passengers before it moves - in the name of profitability.
The idea that light rail is a failure if it doesn't generate a profit is nonsense. What roads in Metro Detroit generate a profit? None. But, nobody talks about that. What's the difference between LRT and roadways? Nothing. They are both government-controlled transportation infrastructure. The government shouldn't be in the business of making money. It should be in the business of providing services using tax money. I believe a majority of SE Michigan residents support Woodward LRT, so why shouldn't it be built? That would be called democracy.
If one wants to argue that the government shouldn't be in the business of providing transportation. That's fine. I agree. But then, the government should get out of the business of subsidizing roads and highways so that private forms of transportation could be profitable, such as a privately owned light rail line. To argue the opposite is hypocrisy.
The only difference between roads and other types of mass transit (besides the ENORMOUS imbalance in funding) is that political interests in Metro Detroit desire more roads to further some maddening agenda. Even someone like me, who works in manufacturing (75% automotive) is disgusted with the region's transit options. The automotive engineers I know want you to buy their cars because they are a quality product that offers a great freedom in mobility, not because their car is the only option being forced down your throat by way of the government's exclusive choice of infrastructure.
In truth, a car is but one form of transportation. Like all transportation, it requires expensive infrastructure: Roads. It also burns up limited resources that the government also subsidizes: Oil. Beyond that, a car is limited in its usefulness and versatility, just like other forms of transportation. It is not effective for traveling very long distances or very short ones. Planes and high-speed trains are more effective for long trips. Bikes, buses, and light rail are effective for shorter trips. Why then would a society want to design all of its infrastructure around a single form of transportation? The answer to that question is probably multifaceted and likely controversial. However, that doesn't mean it makes any sense or is based in reason or even good judgment.
The resulting effect of all this is that we have lousy infrastructure, even compared to some third world cities. We are forced to own a vehicle as a condition of life in Metro Detroit. We pay the highest insurance rates in the country. We deal with terrible drivers and awful road conditions due the expense of maintenance. We have no option but to give all of our hard-earned money to a gas pump. We cannot walk anywhere conveniently. We lack the beauty, excitement, grandeur, and social benefits created by urban environments. We shell out hundreds for vehicle repairs and suffer the fate of horrendous accidents. We isolate the poor, the elderly, the handicapped, and all others who for whatever reason cannot operate a vehicle. We entice our young people to drink and drive every time they go out. We waste thousands of hours per year commuting in traffic. In winter, we pour millions of pounds of salt and chemicals into our communities. So, that's about where we're at.
That is not germane. The fact remains, regardless of who first said the word Atlanta, that you said that you cannot compare Detroit with Atlanta or New York. New York I can agree with because its in a league of its own.....but Atlanta is not in some exclusive model club either. The city of Atlanta has all kinds of problems with poverty, crime and poor schools. There has been massive new building within the city of Atlanta, despite crime, poor schools and the like.....the same things that you say Detroit cannot turn around until they fix. I call BS. Its happening in too many places. Do you remember what the South Bronx used to look like in the 70's....vs Today? It was run down like Parts of Detroit.
Atlanta is head and shoulders above Detroit. I know quite a few people who have moved to Atlanta over the last 15-20 years and most of them have remained. The people I know who moved there enjoy the quality of life that the area has to offer and most of them have enjoyed stability of employment. If the place were a crime-ridden dump with poor schools, then these people, all of whom are educated, would have moved on long ago whatever the availability of employment in the area.
Contrast those experiences with the experiences of the people I know who moved to the Detroit area. Normally, they enjoyed their lives in the suburbs, but increasingly few of them enjoyed stable jobs. So even with the safe streets and the good schools available out there, these people had to move on because work was only sporadically available and the jobs picture grew more and more dim as the years dragged on. They did tend to persevere in the suburbs of Detroit for as long as they could, though, because the streets were safe and the schools were good. If the 'burbs didn't offer superior safety and good education options, then these people would have made tracks long before they did.
Given the lack of jobs, the unsafe streets, and the poor schools in the city, these folks never considered living in Detroit proper. I don't know what your frame of reference is, and I can only report what I've observed of my friends and family.
And, yes, the South Bronx in the '70s was a very grim place. Some say it still is. Its proximity to both some of the most expensive real estate on Earth and the world's financial capital makes turning a place like it around considerably easier, though. At this point, however, I fear that we are veering way off topic and engaging in more of a chat between ourselves.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Its the gateway to the Southeast. Whooppdedoo. There are so many large cities in the North that that its much harder to become the regional hub. How far do you have to drive from Atlanta to reach another metro area with 2 million people
I don't know what that has to do with anything. It doesn't change the fact that Atlanta is the hub for the Southeast. And I've conceded that the Detroit area is an important part of the national economy outside of Detroit proper. All of these things don't change the fact that the city of Detroit is but a shell of its former self.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Actually, I would argue that the suburbs of Detroit are much better than the suburbs of Atlanta. You will find a higher percentage of poor schools in suburban Atlanta than in Suburban Detroit. Furthermore, nearly three times as many murders happen in the suburbs of Atlanta than the City of Atlanta, which means that the Suburbs of Atlanta are a lot less safe than the Suburbs of Detroit. Yes, the problems in Detroit are more acute than the problems in Atlanta proper, but when you look at the big picture the Atlanta area is hardly heads and sholders above the Detroit area. Now, lets be real. Who really give a slit about borders? When marketers look at an area they look at the metropolitan area....and not just the city. Cities are talked about today like its 1950 or something. Cities no longer house the majority of people living in a contiguous human settlement area, like the used to. The majority of people now live in suburbs. Thus, to continue to compare one city proper to another city proper, while ignoring the metropolitan realities makes no sense. Cities are NOT microcosms of their metropolitan areas. Every metropolitan area has "bad areas" and "good areas". Detroit is a metro area that divided itself by race, between the city and the suburbs, unlike any other city in America. That is the only thing that really makes Detroit "different".
In my humble opinion, your city center matters a great deal. The more toxic a city center, the more difficult it is to have a healthy, well-functioning metro area. In any event, I haven't argued that Detroit doesn't have some great suburbs. Detroit has some of the nicest suburbs in the United States. I know that.
I still think that the Atlanta metro area offers more and it appeals more to transplants, even if it also suffers from crime and sometimes inadequate public schools. Again, that's just what my friends and family have reported to me over the years.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I am too busy leading to follow along. You said that there are not ANY good schools in Detroit, which is a lie, unless good means "not black". Anyway, you said that Detroit is not in the league with Atlanta, which has poor schools and high crime too. Now you are back peddling.
Leading versus following? Whatever. You can ignore or gloss over what others have to say, but the fact of the matter is that Detroit is in class all by itself, and not in a good or an encouraging way. I know you don't like to hear that, but so it goes.
Also, good local schools means more than Renaissance and Cass. It means that most local schools are good. And I'll kindly thank you to refrain from suggesting that I might be a racist.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
Thanks for the googled list but nearly every one of those things can be applied to large northern cities, that are in better shape than Detroit today.
I don't know what your point is other than Detroit has fallen farther and harder than any comparable city. If you want to reduce it to something unspoken or implied, then have at it. I can imagine that you mean to suggest something, but I don't believe that what you might intend to suggest is the reason for Detroit's precipitous decline is the only force at work in this case.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
That is true but the salvation of the American economy is production and creating an equilibrium between what we consume and what we produce. There is no expectation that the number of line workers will return to its peak. What it will mean is that more Engineers and scientist will be involved to create the automation. Thus, the industry will produce more high tech jobs than in the past, as the product and the process becomes more high tech. There will be spin off jobs created from these REAL jobs.
No quibble from me about much of what you have written here. Increasing the numbers of well-educated engineers and scientists will require a radical restructuring of the way that education is delivered across the land, however, and not the piecemeal incremental change that I've witnessed to date.
Atlanta is head and shoulders above Detroit. I know quite a few people who have moved to Atlanta over the last 15-20 years and most of them have remained. The people I know who moved there enjoy the quality of life that the area has to offer and most of them have enjoyed stability of employment. If the place were a crime-ridden dump with poor schools, then these people, all of whom are educated, would have moved on long ago whatever the availability of employment in the area.
Well....I know people who moved down there and were murdered.
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Contrast those experiences with the experiences of the people I know who moved to the Detroit area. Normally, they enjoyed their lives in the suburbs, but increasingly few of them enjoyed stable jobs. So even with the safe streets and the good schools available out there, these people had to move on because work was only sporadically available and the jobs picture grew more and more dim as the years dragged on. They did tend to persevere in the suburbs of Detroit for as long as they could, though, because the streets were safe and the schools were good. If the 'burbs didn't offer superior safety and good education options, then these people would have made tracks long before they did.
No one is denying the Detroit areas employment problems over the last decade. However, as I stated before, the Atlanta area HAS LOST JOBS, over the last year, while the Detroit area has gained jobs. Metro Atlanta's unemployment rate is 10.3%. Atlanta bubble economy has burst and it will be a long time before it recovers. I will suggest to you that the last 10 or 20 years will not be an extrapolation of the previous 20 years....and that is what you are doing....extrapolating. The FACT is that Atlanta is struggling economically right now and is hardly light years ahead of Detroit in that regard.
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Given the lack of jobs, the unsafe streets, and the poor schools in the city, these folks never considered living in Detroit proper. I don't know what your frame of reference is, and I can only report what I've observed of my friends and family.
Atlanta is a city of 138 square miles, like Detroit. Less than 10% of the metro area lives in the City of Atlanta. So when people are moving to the Atlanta area......few are considering the city of Atlanta either. If they were the city would have grown as fast as the suburbs.
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And, yes, the South Bronx in the '70s was a very grim place. Some say it still is. Its proximity to both some of the most expensive real estate on Earth and the world's financial capital makes turning a place like it around considerably easier, though. At this point, however, I fear that we are veering way off topic and engaging in more of a chat between ourselves.
The bottom line is that crime and poor schools and abandonment does not mean that a city is doomed. I will say this though, Detroit cannot really turn around until the American economy turns around. If the real estate industry comes back, you will see a lot of clearing of land and construction of new housing in Detroit. The rebirth is already starting from the core. There will be about 10 to 20,000 new residents in the core by 2020, if the American economy comes back. Right not there is not a lot of construction going oin anywhere in this country.
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I don't know what that has to do with anything. It doesn't change the fact that Atlanta is the hub for the Southeast. And I've conceded that the Detroit area is an important part of the national economy outside of Detroit proper. All of these things don't change the fact that the city of Detroit is but a shell of its former self.
The fact that Micheal Jordan is a shell of his former self, as a ball player, does not mean he is still not a better ball player than many up and coming players. Detroit, even as a shell of its former self, has over 200,000 more people than Atlanta, in the same number of square miles.
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In my humble opinion, your city center matters a great deal. The more toxic a city center, the more difficult it is to have a healthy, well-functioning metro area. In any event, I haven't argued that Detroit doesn't have some great suburbs. Detroit has some of the nicest suburbs in the United States. I know that.
Yes and no. The truth is that the central city image caste a positive or negative shadow over the whole region. The Detroit area has been hurt by the negative image of the city, but that really should not be the case because the city of Detroit is not a micrososm of the area. I think it becomes hard for people who live in the city, but not for the people who live in the suburbs. The people in the suburbs of Detroit wanted to keep all the problems isolated in Detroit......In a place like Atlanta, you will find many of the same problems of the city, in many suburbs.
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I still think that the Atlanta metro area offers more and it appeals more to transplants, even if it also suffers from crime and sometimes inadequate public schools. Again, that's just what my friends and family have reported to me over the years.
Of course it does. Its newer , warmer and more trendy. However, lets see how much they enjoy it the next 10 years.
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Leading versus following? Whatever. You can ignore or gloss over what others have to say, but the fact of the matter is that Detroit is in class all by itself, and not in a good or an encouraging way. I know you don't like to hear that, but so it goes.
Lol.....nope.....I do not see it that way at all. I am African American. Detroit is a city that is 85% African American. When I visit my relatives in the inner-city of other big cities, like Chicago and Philly, I see the same things that I see in Detroit. Whats the difference? The difference is that the black community does not define these cities like it does Detroit. The fact that Detroit has decay is not surprising when whites left the city and there was not enough blacks to occupy all the dwellings. There was once about 1.7 million whites in Detroit. Today there are about 80,000. Detroits black population peaked, at around 2002, at about 790,000 people. 790,000 people cannot fill the gap 0f all those who left and the dwelling they once occupied. I mean, one should expect that to be the result. There are intact neighborhoods in Detroit and that is where most people live.
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Also, good local schools means more than Renaissance and Cass. It means that most local schools are good. And I'll kindly thank you to refrain from suggesting that I might be a racist.
Good schools is often a proxy to hide other things. The fact of the matter is that a lot of parents do not want to send there kids to schools that have lots of blacks. How many white kids go to Renaissance? That school, was previously the 18th best high school in the State of Michigan. Its 45 of 807 this year. Its like 99% black. I live in Minnesota now. I looked at schools on school digger in this state. Minnesota has schools of choice. Many parents sent their kids to schools in suburban districts and from studying the demographic trends it became obvious that as the schools enrolled more blacks, there was a rapid decline in white enrollement at many of these schools. Its the same pattern of blacks moving in and whites moving out. I have hope though.....in the younger generation who interact together more.
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I don't know what your point is other than Detroit has fallen farther and harder than any comparable city. If you want to reduce it to something unspoken or implied, then have at it. I can imagine that you mean to suggest something, but I don't believe that what you might intend to suggest is the reason for Detroit's precipitous decline is the only force at work in this case.
To tell you the truth.....I am not worried about whether Detroit is going to come back. I am more worried about whether America is going to come back. To me its really sille to be focusing on the problems of Detroit.....when the nation as a whole faces the prospects of collapse. When the NATION is in peril......does it really matter how Detroit ranks with Atlanta or other cities? If the nation collapses I can bet you that the Quality of life in Atlanta will not be much different than Detroit. If things turn around, I can also bet you that the will turn around faster for Detroit than Atlanta.
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No quibble from me about much of what you have written here. Increasing the numbers of well-educated engineers and scientists will require a radical restructuring of the way that education is delivered across the land, however, and not the piecemeal incremental change that I've witnessed to date.
First, ForStarters has one of the most sober, clear-eyed view of public transit than practically any Michigander I've read on this board, and I couldn't agree more with his (or her) viewpoint on this latest Detroit transit debacle.
Secondly, I tend to notice that whenever the subject of rail transit comes up, Detroit area folks who want to change the subject and (make) believe that, if you suddenly change other things, like schools and the ubiquitous "infrastructure", Detroit would be comparable to other healthy cities. WRONG. One flaw in this bait-'n-switch logic is that these other issues (like schools) are MORE important that transit. No one is arguing that public education isn't more important than transit, or even the economy, ... what people are missing is the fact that these issues are inner connected... Then, the Detroit transit trashers will point out, why hasn't transit (in cities where it's good, like Cleveland), waved the magic wand and made it an Emerald City with great schools (they're terrible), and pristine neighborhoods (Cleveland is ground zero for the foreclosure mess...as the most recent 60 Minutes piece noted)... Answer, transit isn't the magic wand in Cleveland (or Chicago, where, despite being held up as a beacon, has plenty of problems away from the fancy North Shore) ... but in Cleveland, there has been considerable growth in many neighborhoods, much generated by quality mass transit, and those growth areas are giving Cleveland one hell of a better overall urban environment than Detroit city (downtown and neighborhoods), which bodes better for helping foster improvement/growth in such areas as quality schools, jobs, housing, and the overall health of the urban economy.
Example: Shaker Square is a 90 year-old TOD, built around the well-known Shaker Rapid Transit system. This old neighborhood, which has it's pockets of blight and deterioration, still is considered one of the more stable, trendy (to young professionals) and desirable neighborhoods in Greater Cleveland. It also has more than 4,000 multi-unit apartment/condo dwellings,... more than any other Cleveland neighborhood with the possible exception of downtown... Think that great transit accessibility to Shaker Square coupled with these facts is just an accident -- wishful thinking transit naysayers.
Example - since 2008, when Cleveland RTA's so-called "Health Line" (BRT) went on-line, there has been over $1 billion in residential and commercial growth along Euclid ave, including in some of the previously more depressed areas of the East Side. again, coincidence? NOTE: the Health Line is considered one of the nation's first and model bus rapid transit systems that other cities, including Chicago's CTA, are hoping to emulate.
Example -- in 3 other distinct neighborhoods in Cleveland, which are considered the most trendy/up 'n coming, there is residential and commercial TOD growth -- Ohio City, University Circle and Flats East Bank. All these areas are building adjacent to rapid (rail) transit stops. All 3 either offer, or will soon offer, quality/healthy walking districts where convenient mass transit contributes to their health (and, again, this increased health contributes/will contribute overall, to Cleveland's economic health).
Again, I know before they even write, that the naysayers will take blind swipes and Cleveland and dismiss mass transit... To them, I just say they continue to whistle past the proverbial graveyard because Detroit's sprawling, decaying infrastructure (which contains zero intimate, healthy walking districts outside of Greektown, which is downtown), will continue to die on the vine the longer this city continues to thumb its nose at quality mass transit.
Detroit has been in decline for 65 years. The current state of Detroit is the result of the best thinking over those 65 years. It's not working, you guys.
Education is the key.
Instead of building the rail, the City of Detroit should take the money and extend an offer to pay-off school loans based on residency.
Implement a plan extended to everyone in the U.S.
Do five years time and 1,000 community service hours teaching Metro area illiterates, in the city of Detroit; the City of Detroit pays-off your school loans. The City of Detroit would take over school loan payments when initial residency is confirmed.
("Do five years time" - c'mon)
If you look at the link below of 1950 population of the 100 largest cities, you will see that decline of northern cities population is the rule and not the exception. Philly, Chicago, Cleveland, Stl...and more, have all declined in population. What you will find as the difference is that these cities are still about 40% white today. If Detroit was still 40% white the city would still be over 1 million people today and certainly not abandoned looking as it is today because housing would not be over supplied. So what’s not working in Detroit is the race thing. The race divide in Detroit was to separate blacks from whites by separating the city from the suburbs. In other cities the racial divide was drawn within the city, which allowed large white populations to remain in the city. When anything is oversupplied, it depreciates and decays...in the case of housing.
On top of that, suburban and outstate residents denigrated Detroit as a hobby and habit. There are people who seemed to salivate at Detroit problems as if it made them feel superior by the constant juxtaposition. Detroit was sabotaged by the power of suburbanites/whites to create self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s like when our nation has a problem with another nation.....what do we do? We put sanctions on that nation to try to promote its failure by destabilizing it. We stop trading with them and we try to convince others to stop trading with them. That is essentially what the suburbs and outstate residents did to Detroit. They placed sanctions on the city choosing not to patronize the city and choosing to disparage the city until the city became a mess from their sanctions.
It’s like when we point the finger at Cuba and say look how poor those people are......but we never mention how much of that is related to the trade restrictions we place on the country and how our nation actively sought to promote the collapse of that nation because we felt threatened by them. People in the region and state ACTIVELY promoted the collapse of Detroit by modifying their behavior....which led to disinvestment, abandonment and the situation we have today.
The reason that I am bullish on the future of Detroit is that, I believe, the sanctions are being lifted. Business leaders are coming BACK into Detroit and even Meijer's has two stores planed for the City and there is more interest in living in the city by younger whites. Right now Detroit needs to try to keep its black middle class so the city can grow with new white residents.
- The speaker of truth makes few friends.
True story. My best friend, who is now deceased (Lord rest his soul), grew up in Chicago (Southside projects) before moving to Michigan. He told me that there was a street in Chicago that you could not cross, based upon your race. He said that one day he and his brother went to a Bears game and somehow got lost and ended up on some street. He said a car pulled up next to he and his brother and stuck a shotgun out the window, aiming it at them, telling them that they were on the wrong side of town and that they had a certain amount of time to get back on the right side or they were going to die. That was not the exact verbiage....as I cannot recall....but I do remember that the N word was used.
That is an example of how the race line was drawn within the city of Chicago and why that city maintains are large white population to this day. They kept an area for themselves.
If you look at the link below of 1950 population of the 100 largest cities, you will see that decline of northern cities population is the rule and not the exception. Philly, Chicago, Cleveland, Stl...and more, have all declined in population. What you will find as the difference is that these cities are still about 40% white today. If Detroit was still 40% white the city would still be over 1 million people today and certainly not abandoned looking as it is today because housing would not be over supplied. So what’s not working in Detroit is the race thing. The race divide in Detroit was to separate blacks from whites by separating the city from the suburbs. In other cities the racial divide was drawn within the city, which allowed large white populations to remain in the city. When anything is oversupplied, it depreciates and decays...in the case of housing.
On top of that, suburban and outstate residents denigrated Detroit as a hobby and habit. There are people who seemed to salivate at Detroit problems as if it made them feel superior by the constant juxtaposition. Detroit was sabotaged by the power of suburbanites/whites to create self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s like when our nation has a problem with another nation.....what do we do? We put sanctions on that nation to try to promote its failure by destabilizing it. We stop trading with them and we try to convince others to stop trading with them. That is essentially what the suburbs and outstate residents did to Detroit. They placed sanctions on the city choosing not to patronize the city and choosing to disparage the city until the city became a mess from their sanctions.
It’s like when we point the finger at Cuba and say look how poor those people are......but we never mention how much of that is related to the trade restrictions we place on the country and how our nation actively sought to promote the collapse of that nation because we felt threatened by them. People in the region and state ACTIVELY promoted the collapse of Detroit by modifying their behavior....which led to disinvestment, abandonment and the situation we have today.
Cubans haven't spent the last 50 years blaming the Yanquis for all their woes.
They have made cake out of bread crumbs. They've been squeezing blood out of stones.
Detroit's leadership couldn't (or wouldn't) make cake out of all the flour you'd give them. They were too busy throwing that flour in the White mens' faces, re-selling it, and baking horrible cakes.
And it's not like there haven't been a lot of Whites cheering them on to make changes and do good for their citizens and the city.
You continually exonerate Detroit's leadership.....and population in general, as if they had no input, and no say about WHAT GOES ON, within the city's borders.
You could have just as easily compared Detroit to Haiti. They've had centuries
of bad leadership, and look at the place.
Who're THEY gonna blame? They've had their independence for over 200 years. That's a long time to make permanent changes and grow your society, even with limited resources and the US empire in the background.
Time after time, black leaders and politicians have used racism and disfranchisement as their tickets to power. And they've used and abused their voters and followers' trust....
and NO MATTER WHAT, their loyalists stand by them....
JUST 'CAUSE THEY'RE BLACK.
So, we expect the rest of America to be color blind, and elect a Black man,
but we're also expected to condone ethnic-racial tribalism and xenophobia vis-a-vis "others", coming from the Black community.
If that's not a double standard....I don't know what is?
And since when are victims inherently noble and helpless?
Black or White, purple or pink, I expect accountability from my leaders.
Cubans haven't spent the last 50 years blaming the Yanquis for all their woes.
They have made cake out of bread crumbs. They've been squeezing blood out of stones.
Yes they have! Have you listened to the speeches of Fidel? The same with Hugo Chavez from Venezuela. They constantly blame US imperialism.
Detroit has been squeezing blood out of stone too....the problem is that no one focuses on the successes in Detroit....just the failures. For example, in all the talk about how terrible Detroit schools are.....no one mentions Renaissance achievments. In 2009, that Detroit public High School, 99% black, was rated the 18th best High School in the State, out of over 800 high schools. If that is not squeezing blood from a rock I do not know what is.
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Detroit's leadership couldn't (or wouldn't) make cake out of all the flour you'd give them. They were too busy throwing that flour in the White mens' faces, re-selling it, and baking horrible cakes.
No....they did not make the Cake THAT YOU WANTED THEM TO MAKE.
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And it's not like there haven't been a lot of Whites cheering them on to make changes and do good for their citizens and the city.
No doubt, just like during slavery that there were whites who were against it.....but it still managed to exist for 200 years notwithstanding.
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You continually exonerate Detroit's leadership.....and population in general, as if they had no input, and no say about WHAT GOES ON, within the city's borders.
What I do is look at other cities in the nation and see did they have crime, corruption and poor schools and did it result in the loss of over half their population and general disinvestment and abandonment by whites. In other words. In science theories or discoveries.....others have to be able to reproduce the results....or its invalid. What I find is that many cities have had political corruption, crime and poor schools and it did not result in the situation that Detroit is in.
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You could have just as easily compared Detroit to Haiti. They've had centuries
of bad leadership, and look at the place.
Why....because they both are black? Black = poor leadership? I guess you say that I could have used any African nation as well....huh?
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Who're THEY gonna blame? They've had their independence for over 200 years. That's a long time to make permanent changes and grow your society, even with limited resources and the US empire in the background.
Unless you can tell me the history of US involvment in Haiti, which I doubt, please don't discredit yourself with conjecture. How about looking up the impact of the US involvement in what happened to swine in Haiti.
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Time after time, black leaders and politicians have used racism and disfranchisement as their tickets to power. And they've used and abused their voters and followers' trust....
and NO MATTER WHAT, their loyalists stand by them....
JUST 'CAUSE THEY'RE BLACK.
Well, in a representitive republic, politicians are supposed to represent the people. No doubt that if one is living in a nation with high unemployment that politicians will use unemployment as a platform to get elected because high unemployment causes pain and fear amongst those being represented. The same with debt. Many people in this nation fear the debt and the impact it will have on their descendants and you have politicians, mostly white, running on this platform. Hence, racism has been painful to black people and any politician who is representing black people will rightly focus on that pain. Now, I am not a big fan of politicians in general. I think that they all make promises that they know they cannot keep and that they tell you what you want to hear to get elected. However, I am not going to say that black politicians are any worse or any better.
Quote:
So, we expect the rest of America to be color blind, and elect a Black man,
but we're also expected to condone ethnic-racial tribalism and xenophobia vis-a-vis "others", coming from the Black community.
If that's not a double standard....I don't know what is?
I certainly did not expect America to be color blind....when it never has been color blind. No one should be color blind. They simply should not make assumptions of superiority or inferiority based upon color. By the way.....I did not vote for Obama.....he did not have enough experience in my opinion.
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And since when are victims inherently noble and helpless?
Black or White, purple or pink, I expect accountability from my leaders.
As well as I.....however, I don't put unrealistic expectations upon them either. I don't use their flaws or shortcomings as red herrings for unrelated problems that their shortcomings did not cause.
PS
I DID critisize Mayor Bing about his lack of effort to get out the Census count and over his lack of fight for this Light Rail. I think Kwame was a better mayor who could get things Done. Lets be real....its not that blacks do not critisize its leaders....its that we do not critisize them for the same reason you do.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-21-2011 at 10:03 AM..
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