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It is not about individuals. No one is born an individual; if you're born an individual, you die. We are, a basic insight stemming from Aristotle, social beings, and to deny this is a delusion.
To quote Judith Butler: "It is, rather, to rethink the relation between conditions and acts. Our ats are not self-generated, but conditioned. We are at once acted upon and acting, and our "responsibility" lies in the juncture between the two."
We have individual agency, but that agency is conditioned by the societal realities by which we live.
Okay, I'll meet you halfway and say we are partly individual and partly a product of our society. But I still believe that most of the advancements of our culture/world are attributable to individual initiative. And virtually all the advancements of one's own personal life are attributable to that individual's own initiative.
I guess I just don't believe that individuals should feel limited or negatively conditioned by society. Maybe it's because I was raised this way.
Individuals are always pushing the bounds of society. Otherwise we would still be living in caves.
Quote:
Those "privileges and opportunities" are often denied to the poor in Detroit, so it isn't exactly as if they can, by force of individualistic will, jump out of that. Our problems are created societally, and that's how they must be treated.
Treated how? How do we treat our societally created problems? I propose we overcome them using our individual initiative. The poor in Detroit have so many privileges and opportunities that they are failing to take advantage of. I guess their reasoning is that they may not have the exact same high level of privileges and opportunities as rich white people in Grosse Pointe Shores, so therefore they should complain and demand reparations. I think they should be grateful that they have free schooling and should be attending school every day and learning as much as they can. Instead of complaining about how whites refused to sell homes to them decades ago, be grateful to have a house to live in. Take care of it, maintain it, keep the yard clean and maintain. Instead of complaining about how the evil white capitalist corporations are destroying people, be grateful to have a job. Go to work everyday, on time, drug/alcohol free, and work hard. Instead of complaining that white retailers don't want to build stores in the city because they are racist, stop shoplifting, discipline your kids not to run around the store ruining merchandise, quit making a mess of the lavatories, quit spray painting graffiti on the outside walls.
There is too much self-loathing and not enough self-improvement.
If you take a group of people, against their will, out into the middle of a lake on a boat and anchor them without sustenance, and many drown trying to swim back to shore, while others die sitting in the boat waiting to be rescued, while others in rage and frustration attack others, what was there cause of these peoples dilemma? The logic of Retroit would have us believe that the root of the problem is the group not having learned how to swim and not knowing how to fish and catch rain water and being frustrated to with their situation to the degree that they take out their anger on others. Retroit’s logic ignores that the group would not even be in the situation if not taken against their will and put out into the lake. They would not have to have learned to swim to survive, or fish and catch rain water. Retroit would not send a rescue vessel (because they may end up on shore where he lives), but rather, argues that their fate is in their own hands as the people who dropped them off in the middle of the lake are no longer around trying to keep them out there.
Retroit wants us to believe that the universe is not governed and cannot be understood through the laws of physics. In Retroits universe, actions do not create reactions that transcend time and space. In Retroit’s universe one can throw a rock into a pond and produce no reverberations that transcend time and space. He lives in a snap shot universe were moments of time are captured that are unrelated to past and future moments. He lives in a universe where a group of people can be legally oppressed for nearly 90% of their existence, as a people, in a land, with no psychological, sociological, cultural or economic reverberations. A people can spend from the 1600’s to the late 1900’s, under legalized oppression and denigration and in 50 expected show no adverse impacts from the history. Given that everything evolves into what it is, how can 50 years erase the impact of over 300 years, especially when racism still exists?
What Retroit and others want to do is avoid America’s culpability, responsibility and accountability. The ONLY way that they can do this is to argue that the problems faced by blacks and majority black cities like Detroit, are unrelated to past legalized acts of racial oppression. Rather, again, the people out in the middle of the water in crisis have self-inflicted causations, such as not knowing how to swim and taking out their frustrations on each other. The entity that places them, against their will, into the middle of lake is connected to Retroit and Retroit does not want to be accountable and responsible for something he did not do, so he must rationalize blaming the victims or arguing that the crisis has nothing to do with events of the past (being forced out into the middle of the lake), but rather, the failure of the group to rise out of their tough situation due to their own shortcomings.
What Retroit and others ignores is the responsibilities that come with citizenship. Citizenship is like an inheritance of the estate of America. When you inherit an estate, you inherit the assets and liabilities of an estate. One cannot inherit an estate worth millions, but then argue against paying back taxes on the estate because they accrued before you owned it. One cannot inherit a business and refuse to pay the creditors because the debt was created before one became the owner or part owner, while at the same time keeping the accounts receivables. That’s what people like Retroit want. They want and feel entitled to the accounts receivables created in the past, that had nothing to do with him, but at the same time wants to deny they accounts payable because he played no role in creating the debt. There are many freedoms and benefits that Retroit enjoys today, that were created from the blood, sweat and sacrifices of others in the past, that are transferred to Retroit, as a citizen of this nation. I never here of him or others of his mindset argue against being passed on these benefits of others deeds in the past, due to not playing a role in creating the benefit, yet, people like him are constantly arguing and trying to avoid paying the liabilities of the nation’s past created by others.
The new racism that exists today is not the type of racism that seeks to knock black people down, but rather, it seeks to make it hard for black people to get back up. It’s not one that makes appeals based upon emotions and fears, like in the past; rather, it’s one that appeals to one’s rational nature. It does not preach or teach hate, rather, it preaches statistics and use the statistics of crime, out of wedlock births, unemployment (all symptoms, effects or complications created from past and present racism untreated) and the like as being rational bases to see black people as less than white people. The new racism seeks to first discredit any external causation to these statistical socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites, by discrediting the influence of past or present racism. Thus, once you remove the external causation then you remove culpability, responsibility and accountability of America and by extension its citizens, while also leaving nothing to explain the gaps other than the traditional belief and doctrine of black inferiority.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-05-2012 at 09:39 AM..
If you take a group of people, against their will, out into the middle of a lake on a boat and anchor them without sustenance, and many drown trying to swim back to shore, while others die sitting in the boat waiting to be rescued, while others in rage and frustration attack others, what was there cause of these peoples dilemma?
Who in Detroit just came off this boat? Hasn't this boat already sailed and SUNK?
Its been 150 years since slaves were freed. Its been 50 years since segregration. At what point do we get past this and move on?
The Irish had it pretty rough when they came here* and yet they aren't still in poverty blaming others for their problems.
*obviously not as bad as blacks
You are using legal milestones.....which is not the same as dates where oppression and racism against blacks actually ended. Is not crime against the law? Does crime being against the law end crime? Thus, simply noting dates where legalized racism ended does not mark the date that racism/black oppression ended.
If they did not have it as bad as blacks.....then why do you even mention them? I certainly know that the Irish in Irerland blamed the British.
Its a moot point because neither will ever happen. What America does is it waits until legally oppressed groups die out.....then they recognize the injustice but then argues that they are now all dead and it too late for reparations. That is why they do not recognize the millions of blacks who are alive today and victims of America's aparthied known as Jim Crow. When that generation(s) die out......then Americans will say how terrible it was and how something should have been done to compensate them.....but its too late because they are all dead.
Its a moot point because neither will ever happen. What America does is it waits until legally oppressed groups die out.....then they recognize the injustice but then argues that they are now all dead and it too late for reparations. That is why they do not recognize the millions of blacks who are alive today and victims of America's aparthied known as Jim Crow. When that generation(s) die out......then Americans will say how terrible it was and how something should have been done to compensate them.....but its too late because they are all dead.
I know. I mean we are such a racist country that we elected a black president
If you take a group of people, against their will, out into the middle of a lake on a boat and anchor them without sustenance, and many drown trying to swim back to shore, while others die sitting in the boat waiting to be rescued, while others in rage and frustration attack others, what was there cause of these peoples dilemma? The logic of Retroit would have us believe that the root of the problem is the group not having learned how to swim and not knowing how to fish and catch rain water and being frustrated to with their situation to the degree that they take out their anger on others. Retroit’s logic ignores that the group would not even be in the situation if not taken against their will and put out into the lake. They would not have to have learned to swim to survive, or fish and catch rain water. Retroit would not send a rescue vessel (because they may end up on shore where he lives), but rather, argues that their fate is in their own hands as the people who dropped them off in the middle of the lake are no longer around trying to keep them out there.
Retroit wants us to believe that the universe is not governed and cannot be understood through the laws of physics. In Retroits universe, actions do not create reactions that transcend time and space. In Retroit’s universe one can throw a rock into a pond and produce no reverberations that transcend time and space. He lives in a snap shot universe were moments of time are captured that are unrelated to past and future moments. He lives in a universe where a group of people can be legally oppressed for nearly 90% of their existence, as a people, in a land, with no psychological, sociological, cultural or economic reverberations. A people can spend from the 1600’s to the late 1900’s, under legalized oppression and denigration and in 50 expected show no adverse impacts from the history. Given that everything evolves into what it is, how can 50 years erase the impact of over 300 years, especially when racism still exists?
What Retroit and others want to do is avoid America’s culpability, responsibility and accountability. The ONLY way that they can do this is to argue that the problems faced by blacks and majority black cities like Detroit, are unrelated to past legalized acts of racial oppression. Rather, again, the people out in the middle of the water in crisis have self-inflicted causations, such as not knowing how to swim and taking out their frustrations on each other. The entity that places them, against their will, into the middle of lake is connected to Retroit and Retroit does not want to be accountable and responsible for something he did not do, so he must rationalize blaming the victims or arguing that the crisis has nothing to do with events of the past (being forced out into the middle of the lake), but rather, the failure of the group to rise out of their tough situation due to their own shortcomings.
What Retroit and others ignores is the responsibilities that come with citizenship. Citizenship is like an inheritance of the estate of America. When you inherit an estate, you inherit the assets and liabilities of an estate. One cannot inherit an estate worth millions, but then argue against paying back taxes on the estate because they accrued before you owned it. One cannot inherit a business and refuse to pay the creditors because the debt was created before one became the owner or part owner, while at the same time keeping the accounts receivables. That’s what people like Retroit want. They want and feel entitled to the accounts receivables created in the past, that had nothing to do with him, but at the same time wants to deny they accounts payable because he played no role in creating the debt. There are many freedoms and benefits that Retroit enjoys today, that were created from the blood, sweat and sacrifices of others in the past, that are transferred to Retroit, as a citizen of this nation. I never here of him or others of his mindset argue against being passed on these benefits of others deeds in the past, due to not playing a role in creating the benefit, yet, people like him are constantly arguing and trying to avoid paying the liabilities of the nation’s past created by others.
The new racism that exists today is not the type of racism that seeks to knock black people down, but rather, it seeks to make it hard for black people to get back up. It’s not one that makes appeals based upon emotions and fears, like in the past; rather, it’s one that appeals to one’s rational nature. It does not preach or teach hate, rather, it preaches statistics and use the statistics of crime, out of wedlock births, unemployment (all symptoms, effects or complications created from past and present racism untreated) and the like as being rational bases to see black people as less than white people. The new racism seeks to first discredit any external causation to these statistical socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites, by discrediting the influence of past or present racism. Thus, once you remove the external causation then you remove culpability, responsibility and accountability of America and by extension its citizens, while also leaving nothing to explain the gaps other than the traditional belief and doctrine of black inferiority.
I don't have the time or desire to go through this line by line, so let's just say for the sake of argument that hypothetically all you have printed is correct. My question is: what can be done to improve the situation in Detroit? How can blacks recover from past injustices to make their city, neighborhoods, families, and selves better? How can crime be reduced? How can education be improved? How can neighborhoods be cleaned up?
What do you want from whites? Reparations? Do you want us to come into the city and give you money and fix up things? Will that really help? Should white people give up our jobs to blacks? Do you want whites to publicly apologize for past wrongs of whites?
And then what? Will all the problems in Detroit just cease? Or will black Detroiters be complaining hundreds of years from now that they shouldn't be expected to improve their lot because white people oppressed them long ago?
I.S., I understand that slavery/segregation/racism have had a negative long-lasting effect on black Detroiters. I understand that there are even black Detroters living today who have experienced segregation/discrimination/racism. I'm sorry about that. I hate people who judge and mistreat others by appearance. I wish it were possible to wave a magic wand and undo all the evils that have been committed by mankind since the beginning of time. But what good will it do? Will it ever be possible to correct all wrongs and prevent them from occurring in the future? Let's face it, humans have a tendency to kill, hurt, or otherwise take advantage of each other. I don't know the solution to that.
Which brings up the main reason why I keep engaging you in these debates, and that is this: what can be done to improve the situation in Detroit as it now exists? Let's put aside all the bad things that have happened in the past. What can be done to prevent bad things from happening in the present? We can't change the way that white people treated blacks in the past, but is it possible to change the way that black people treat each other in the present in Detroit?
Since you like analogies: let's suppose that all the white people in the world became infected with a deadly disease and all died off. After the black people stopped celebrating, would the situation in Detroit improve, get worse, or stay the same? Will the elimination of all white people be enough for black Detroiters to say "It is now up to us to make our city better"? Or would they sit around and say "What can be expected of us? After all, we had been oppressed for so long, how can anyone expect better of us?"
It pains me to think that people with my skin color oppressed/tortured/killed people with your skin color in years past. But is there really anything that I can do to reverse that? Or would it be better to focus on how people of all skin colors living today can stop hurting people of all skin colors today? And since this is a "Detroit" thread and since Detroit has a comparatively high level of crime, what can be done to stop people of your skin color living in Detroit from hurting people of your skin color living in Detroit?
Now, if I were truly racist, would I be asking these questions?...or would I be sitting back laughing my ass off watching Detroit crumble to the ground as blacks kill each other off at an alarming rate?
P.S. Thank you for taking the time to write a legible, spelling-error-free post!
Its a moot point because neither will ever happen. What America does is it waits until legally oppressed groups die out.....then they recognize the injustice but then argues that they are now all dead and it too late for reparations. That is why they do not recognize the millions of blacks who are alive today and victims of America's aparthied known as Jim Crow. When that generation(s) die out......then Americans will say how terrible it was and how something should have been done to compensate them.....but its too late because they are all dead.
But are reparations even possible? Would Native Americans truly be made whole even if we forced all whites and blacks and Asians to leave the country? Would blacks be made whole if we took them all back to Africa? Has that worked for Liberia?
I think there is a logical realization that it will be a futile effort to compensate for all past offenses. We need to focus on the present, and make sure that everyone living today has equal rights and opportunities.
The quaterback analogy is a poor one since Black quarterbacks tend to be more athletic. I mean I can't even think of the purely drop back, stand in the pocket black quarterback maybe Warren Moon, Doug Williams?
Yet I do agree with C-suite conclusion. I know a C-Suite Black American for a Fortune 500 company who has said as much and I've experienced attitudes like this myself.
I'll get something like, "Wow you're smart" and I've had an Indian classmate who was responding to an article I shared on Facebook about Black MBAs who could not find jobs that it would never happen to me because,"I'm smart". Implying that Black MBAs are not smart.
Look we are all human beings if more Blacks do better in school perceptions will change it really is that simple and as for Detroit leaders they really are that bad.
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