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I don't have the time or desire to go through this line by line, so let's just say for the sake of argument that hypothetically all you have printed is correct. My question is: what can be done to improve the situation in Detroit? How can blacks recover from past injustices to make their city, neighborhoods, families, and selves better? How can crime be reduced? How can education be improved? How can neighborhoods be cleaned up?
What do you want from whites? Reparations? Do you want us to come into the city and give you money and fix up things? Will that really help? Should white people give up our jobs to blacks? Do you want whites to publicly apologize for past wrongs of whites?
And then what? Will all the problems in Detroit just cease? Or will black Detroiters be complaining hundreds of years from now that they shouldn't be expected to improve their lot because white people oppressed them long ago?
I.S., I understand that slavery/segregation/racism have had a negative long-lasting effect on black Detroiters. I understand that there are even black Detroters living today who have experienced segregation/discrimination/racism. I'm sorry about that. I hate people who judge and mistreat others by appearance. I wish it were possible to wave a magic wand and undo all the evils that have been committed by mankind since the beginning of time. But what good will it do? Will it ever be possible to correct all wrongs and prevent them from occurring in the future? Let's face it, humans have a tendency to kill, hurt, or otherwise take advantage of each other. I don't know the solution to that.
Which brings up the main reason why I keep engaging you in these debates, and that is this: what can be done to improve the situation in Detroit as it now exists? Let's put aside all the bad things that have happened in the past. What can be done to prevent bad things from happening in the present? We can't change the way that white people treated blacks in the past, but is it possible to change the way that black people treat each other in the present in Detroit?
Since you like analogies: let's suppose that all the white people in the world became infected with a deadly disease and all died off. After the black people stopped celebrating, would the situation in Detroit improve, get worse, or stay the same? Will the elimination of all white people be enough for black Detroiters to say "It is now up to us to make our city better"? Or would they sit around and say "What can be expected of us? After all, we had been oppressed for so long, how can anyone expect better of us?"
It pains me to think that people with my skin color oppressed/tortured/killed people with your skin color in years past. But is there really anything that I can do to reverse that? Or would it be better to focus on how people of all skin colors living today can stop hurting people of all skin colors today? And since this is a "Detroit" thread and since Detroit has a comparatively high level of crime, what can be done to stop people of your skin color living in Detroit from hurting people of your skin color living in Detroit?
Now, if I were truly racist, would I be asking these questions?...or would I be sitting back laughing my ass off watching Detroit crumble to the ground as blacks kill each other off at an alarming rate?
P.S. Thank you for taking the time to write a legible, spelling-error-free post!
I have no way of telling if you are laughing or not or enjoying Detroit’s demise or not. What I am saying to you is that the blacks that live in Detroit currently can NEVER recreate the glory days of Detroit. The glory days of Detroit were created as a result of nearly two million people living in a city with thousands of jobs located within the city. The people of the city of Detroit, in its hey days, were a microcosm of America in that they were predominately white and hence reflected the incomes and wealth of the historically privileged race in America.
Today you have about 750,000 people, 85% of which are black. One cannot make a city of 750,000 maintain a city built up to house nearly 2 million people. Not only is the population reduced over a half, creating abandonment and dilapidation, the taxable income from residents and businesses, in 1950 constant dollars, has been reduced by nearly 2/3rds. Thus, it’s simply too much city for the current residents, a large portion of which are poor, to support and maintain to the degree that it would inspire a turnaround of the city. Hence, what I am saying to you is that there is nothing that black Detroiters can do. The problems of Detroit was caused by disinvestment, white flight, business flight, the decline of the auto industry and manufacturing in America, the housing and real estate collapse and federal and state governments reducing or eliminating aids to cities because of their own budget crisis.
As I pointed out before, every major city in the United States has black people and as a result of the history of this nation, the black people demonstrate similar socioeconomic conditions and behaviors as a consequence or reaction to that history. These conditions are not unique to Detroit. The city of Philadelphia had 6 murders in 12 hours on New Year’s Day. The city has had over 300 murders a year for the last 5 years and 85% of the victims were black and likely the perpetrators as well. Detroit and Philly has about the same number of black people in their city limits. Blacks are killing blacks at the same rate in Philly as they are in Detroit and likely Chicago. Yet, Philly has 1.5 million people. How does the whites and other manage to live and thrive in Philly and whites cannot live and thrive in Detroit? Why can businesses and neighborhoods thrive in Chicago, despite gang violence and murders, but not do so in Detroit?
In light of that, the question I ask is why is Detroit black community being asked to clean up their act in order to save the city of Detroit, when the actions of blacks in other cities does not seem to be preventing whites and businesses from residing, investing and promoting those cities? The problems of blacks in Detroit are not an anomaly in America. The problems and crisis of black poverty, unemployment, crime and the like is repeated in every major city in America. Yet, every major city in America is not facing the crisis of the city of Detroit. Why? The answer is simple. In the other major cities whites did not abandon the city and create city suburban racial polarization as what happened in Detroit. It’s not that the other cities were more liberal or less racist, rather, they chose to become racially polarized within city limits, which preserved many neighborhoods for whites, which helped to maintain the population and hence tax base to support those cities.
Treated how? How do we treat our societally created problems? I propose we overcome them using our individual initiative. The poor in Detroit have so many privileges and opportunities that they are failing to take advantage of. I guess their reasoning is that they may not have the exact same high level of privileges and opportunities as rich white people in Grosse Pointe Shores, so therefore they should complain and demand reparations. I think they should be grateful that they have free schooling and should be attending school every day and learning as much as they can. Instead of complaining about how whites refused to sell homes to them decades ago, be grateful to have a house to live in. Take care of it, maintain it, keep the yard clean and maintain. Instead of complaining about how the evil white capitalist corporations are destroying people, be grateful to have a job. Go to work everyday, on time, drug/alcohol free, and work hard. Instead of complaining that white retailers don't want to build stores in the city because they are racist, stop shoplifting, discipline your kids not to run around the store ruining merchandise, quit making a mess of the lavatories, quit spray painting graffiti on the outside walls.
There is too much self-loathing and not enough self-improvement.
I am hitting my head against a wall attempting to understand how anyone who has stepped foot in Detroit can also be the author of these sentences. Privileges in Detroit? When students are forced into classrooms with thirty+ other students (this is no way to learn, for anyone, and is a widespread problem in the U.S. - our schools are becoming no more than standardized test factories)? When students can't even get to classes because of a failing bus system? When the unemployed can't search for jobs online, because their neighborhood library has been shut down?
All this individualistic-oriented solutions you put forth ("work hard, persevere, get a job, self-preserve!) are just a couple of steps away from pure fatalism, you know that? That is, if the individual's agency is the sole locus of his/her self-improvement, the logical telos is that those who don't self-improve are incapable of such. Individualism is nothing more than the doctrine of oppression's self-justification (Theodor Adorno: "Man is the ideology of dehumanization").
Social problems need a social palliative. Work like this is the start:
The absolute bottom line in this thread cluttered with side-tracks is that the OP feels that Detroits leadership has been badly treated because of racism.
Kilpatrick was HORRIBLE and ended up costing the city millions in settlements and trying to throw others under the bus to cover his tracks....ending in 2 felonies.
I've not heard bad things about Bing....but things in Detroit have been tough and leaders ALWAYS get wayyyy too much blame for bad things and wayyyy too much credit when times are good. Just look at Bush and Obama and all the grief they got over the economy when a lot of it was outside their control or pre-dated their terms.
So honestly, if you want to defend people like Kilpatrick because he's black and you can't stand to see him criticized then that's just going to have to be your position. If you want to TRY to portray me as racist for having a low opinion of Kilpatrick then go for it.
But are reparations even possible? Would Native Americans truly be made whole even if we forced all whites and blacks and Asians to leave the country? Would blacks be made whole if we took them all back to Africa? Has that worked for Liberia?
I think there is a logical realization that it will be a futile effort to compensate for all past offenses. We need to focus on the present, and make sure that everyone living today has equal rights and opportunities.
Thats only because you are playing MASTER and deciding how reparations should manifest. You have a tunnel vision which allows you to only see that which you can argue against. Money is only a conduit in a capitalistic construct that we live. The goal is not MONEY, but REPAIR.....which takes money.
I have no way of telling if you are laughing or not or enjoying Detroit’s demise or not. What I am saying to you is that the blacks that live in Detroit currently can NEVER recreate the glory days of Detroit. The glory days of Detroit were created as a result of nearly two million people living in a city with thousands of jobs located within the city. The people of the city of Detroit, in its hey days, were a microcosm of America in that they were predominately white and hence reflected the incomes and wealth of the historically privileged race in America.
Today you have about 750,000 people, 85% of which are black. One cannot make a city of 750,000 maintain a city built up to house nearly 2 million people. Not only is the population reduced over a half, creating abandonment and dilapidation, the taxable income from residents and businesses, in 1950 constant dollars, has been reduced by nearly 2/3rds. Thus, it’s simply too much city for the current residents, a large portion of which are poor, to support and maintain to the degree that it would inspire a turnaround of the city.
I'm not sure why you brought this up. I never said Detroit should be able to recreate the glory days. I also don't think population is relevant. Should farm country have a higher crime rate because less people live there?
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Hence, what I am saying to you is that there is nothing that black Detroiters can do.
"Nothing"?
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The problems of Detroit was caused by disinvestment, white flight, business flight, the decline of the auto industry and manufacturing in America, the housing and real estate collapse and federal and state governments reducing or eliminating aids to cities because of their own budget crisis.
And the solution is caused by:............................................... ..........
Quote:
As I pointed out before, every major city in the United States has black people and as a result of the history of this nation, the black people demonstrate similar socioeconomic conditions and behaviors as a consequence or reaction to that history. These conditions are not unique to Detroit. The city of Philadelphia had 6 murders in 12 hours on New Year’s Day. The city has had over 300 murders a year for the last 5 years and 85% of the victims were black and likely the perpetrators as well. Detroit and Philly has about the same number of black people in their city limits. Blacks are killing blacks at the same rate in Philly as they are in Detroit and likely Chicago. Yet, Philly has 1.5 million people. How does the whites and other manage to live and thrive in Philly and whites cannot live and thrive in Detroit? Why can businesses and neighborhoods thrive in Chicago, despite gang violence and murders, but not do so in Detroit?
In light of that, the question I ask is why is Detroit black community being asked to clean up their act in order to save the city of Detroit, when the actions of blacks in other cities does not seem to be preventing whites and businesses from residing, investing and promoting those cities? The problems of blacks in Detroit are not an anomaly in America. The problems and crisis of black poverty, unemployment, crime and the like is repeated in every major city in America. Yet, every major city in America is not facing the crisis of the city of Detroit. Why? The answer is simple. In the other major cities whites did not abandon the city and create city suburban racial polarization as what happened in Detroit. It’s not that the other cities were more liberal or less racist, rather, they chose to become racially polarized within city limits, which preserved many neighborhoods for whites, which helped to maintain the population and hence tax base to support those cities.
So these other cities don't have black areas that are just as bad as Detroit? They are all perfectly integrated with no racial polarization?
The absolute bottom line in this thread cluttered with side-tracks is that the OP feels that Detroits leadership has been badly treated because of racism.
Kilpatrick was HORRIBLE and ended up costing the city millions in settlements and trying to throw others under the bus to cover his tracks....ending in 2 felonies.
I've not heard bad things about Bing....but things in Detroit have been tough and leaders ALWAYS get wayyyy too much blame for bad things and wayyyy too much credit when times are good. Just look at Bush and Obama and all the grief they got over the economy when a lot of it was outside their control or pre-dated their terms.
So honestly, if you want to defend people like Kilpatrick because he's black and you can't stand to see him criticized then that's just going to have to be your position. If you want to TRY to portray me as racist for having a low opinion of Kilpatrick then go for it.
Well....was the budget balanced when Kwame was Mayor? Were not new stadiums built while he was mayor? Did not Compuwaree move its headquarters to Detroit while he was mayor? Did not the Super Bowl come to Detroit while he was mayor. Did he not have revitalization projects? Billions in investment came into Detroit while Kwame was mayor.....but like the article says......I guess that happened despite his incompetence. He then cheated on his wife and lied about it........which makes him a terrible mayor I guess....including all the allegations against him....that were never proven.....but why do people WANT to believe them if they are not proven?
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-05-2012 at 02:57 PM..
I'm not sure why you brought this up. I never said Detroit should be able to recreate the glory days. I also don't think population is relevant. Should farm country have a higher crime rate because less people live there?
You did not have to bring it up, Detroits looks the way it does today because it was once built up and housed nearly 2 million people. That was the glory days. It looks bad today because of the torn down buildings, empty lots that reflect lost population, investment and glory. The more people you have the more taxable income and investment that comes with it....normally.
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So these other cities don't have black areas that are just as bad as Detroit? They are all perfectly integrated with no racial polarization?
I am hitting my head against a wall attempting to understand how anyone who has stepped foot in Detroit can also be the author of these sentences. Privileges in Detroit? When students are forced into classrooms with thirty+ other students (this is no way to learn, for anyone, and is a widespread problem in the U.S. - our schools are becoming no more than standardized test factories)? When students can't even get to classes because of a failing bus system? When the unemployed can't search for jobs online, because their neighborhood library has been shut down?
And these problems were caused by whom?
Quote:
All this individualistic-oriented solutions you put forth ("work hard, persevere, get a job, self-preserve!) are just a couple of steps away from pure fatalism, you know that? That is, if the individual's agency is the sole locus of his/her self-improvement, the logical telos is that those who don't self-improve are incapable of such. Individualism is nothing more than the doctrine of oppression's self-justification (Theodor Adorno: "Man is the ideology of dehumanization").
What the hell are you talking about? Who got you out of bed this morning and got you dressed?
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Social problems need a social palliative. Work like this is the start:
Thats only because you are playing MASTER and deciding how reparations should manifest. You have a tunnel vision which allows you to only see that which you can argue against. Money is only a conduit in a capitalistic construct that we live. The goal is not MONEY, but REPAIR.....which takes money.
Uhhhh, you emphasize individual, I emphasize community. There's the difference. BAMN has certainly done far more than the idiots in Troy's City Council. Which brings us back to the reason this topic exists: why so much opprobrium on Detroit's city council when Troy's behaves like petty little children? Sure, the former's a bigger city, but still, the rejection of the transit center in Troy that the council allowed directly hurt business.
And I may have gotten myself out of bed, but if it weren't for the lives of others (COMMUNITY), there'd be no point in getting up at all. But, er, again, I'm not sure how to respond, you seem to have mostly missed my point.
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