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Actually, the Black and Brown population of some parts of Toronto is HUGE. Canada has almost a 1000 000 Blacks, and of that number is constantly growing. The majority resides right in and around Toronto.
It's not Minnesota.
Blacks here are not blueberries in a milk bowl.
Here, you'll find Blacks from just about anywhere in this world: West Indies, South America, Cuba, Africa, USA, UK, native Ontario Blacks and Nova Scotian Blacks.
It's a huge population. But it has the same problems as the US, albeit, a less acute version of the same social illnesses.
As far as your theory that Swedish kids probably have as many problems 'cause they come from single parent families, I've actually had a discussion about EXACTLY THAT with one of these Black girlfriends of mine.
She's Black from Sweden.
She's one of the girls I was talking about in my previous post. Well, she says that the Scandinavians are not so irresponsible, and that even when they split up with their partners, they don't usually abandon their children as well.
If "good Black guys" are scarce and rare, it's exactly because they are. The statistics speak for themselves. You really can't ignore the facts on the ground.
It's a serious, festering social problem and it needs to be adressed ASAP.
I don't buy your argument that it was White colonialism and slavery that are the root causes of problems we're discussing.
Africa has had its history of polygamy and female abuse, long before the White man made it to the Cape.
Doesn't the King of Swaziland get to pick, a young, bare-breasted virgin, every year?
I think he's up to about 15 wives now.
Heck, I remember a while back, a NYT journalist was investigating the fast spread of HIV in southern Africa. Namibia, if I recall correctly.
What was the chief cause (according to the locals interviewed)?
Promiscuity, easy sex. In fact, the local guy was complaining about how the infected women were picking up local guys at the bars.....a different guy every night, totally ignoring the risks to which they were exposing their randomly picked sexual partners.
I don't think they'd be doing that if they were living in Kabul or Islamabad, and those places were colonized by the White man too.
Very few places in Africa were ever as puritanical as most places in Asia, Near East, North Africa and SouthEastern Europe.
Even Obama had to address THAT issue, when he was writing his biography.
His father's legacy was something he has had to deal with. As far as Obama is concerned, his father's behaviour has lot to do with his native culture.
You know....one kid in Boston , another in China, another in Kenya, another in Washington...
The guy had an Ivy League education, and a harem of brokenhearted women, from Indonesia to East Africa.
Hell, only the Kennedys and Clinton have been able to get away with so much womanizing and promiscuity. But then, they didn't leave fatherless kids all around the Globe.
I've gone off topic, thus, I'm going to end this sub-thread, right here. I think you know what I'm getting at.
When I looked it up Canada had 783,000 blacks from their last census in 2006, so lets say it’s up to 800,000 now making up about 2.2% of Canada’s total population. The area with the largest concentration was the Toronto Metro, at 47%, followed by Montreal, with 30 something percent. That means that the Toronto Metro, which is over 5 million people has less than 400,000 blacks. That means that metro Toronto’s black population is less than 8% black, which is pretty similar to the Twin Cities percent black.
Now, I don’t know how good you are at math in the area of probability and statistics, but based upon the statistics, just like here in Minnesota, the probability of running into white people is much greater than the probability of running into black people, especially at places of employment, shopping, colleges, and the like, unless one lives under a South Africa like apartheid that creates racial separation. As I noted, I exist in a predominantly white area and in living my life 90% of the new people I meet are white. If I was single it would therefore be much more probable and hence easy to meet white women than black women. Obviously you understand very little about the challenges of being a numeric minority. This is one of the man reasons why black people form so many “black” organizations, clubs and networks. This is a means of black people getting to meet other black people in an area that’s dominated by other races or ethnicities. You will not find these black organizations in black Africa because blacks dominate.
There is no statistics that says that good black guys are scarce and rare. That is simply your opinion that I countered with my opinion. Moreover, a good black man to one woman might not be considered a good black man to another women. The fact is that many women are attracted to the “Ladies man”, regardless of race. Then they “settle” for a “good guy” only after they get burned out from trying to tame the “bad boy ladies man”.
As far as Africa goes, the things you noted have nothing to do with the institution of marriage. The fact is that the institution of marriage in Africa is much stronger than the institution of marriage in the west among those of African descent. You talking about aids and sexual promiscuity are totally different topics. The fact remains that the disintegration of the family unit, among black people, is more acute in the West than it is in Africa. That is an undisputable fact. Hence, there is something about the West, obviously, that is contributing to the disintegration of the black family unit.
Again, my point all along is that societies or groups where the male is no longer needed for economic survival, the more matriarchal the family becomes. I would venture to guess that in terms of class, that the rich have the highest rates of marriage due to the fact that the man is rich enough to provide for a family. I would also venture to guess that marriage is weaker among the poor, in Western nations, because the man cannot provide enough to take care of the family and the women does not want to put up with such a man when she or the government can assume the economic burden. Given that black rates of poverty are 3 times that of whites, it’s easy to see why this is more acute in the black community
When I looked it up Canada had 783,000 blacks from their last census in 2006, so lets say it’s up to 800,000 now making up about 2.2% of Canada’s total population. The area with the largest concentration was the Toronto Metro, at 47%, followed by Montreal, with 30 something percent. That means that the Toronto Metro, which is over 5 million people has less than 400,000 blacks. That means that metro Toronto’s black population is less than 8% black, which is pretty similar to the Twin Cities percent black.
Now, I don’t know how good you are at math in the area of probability and statistics, but based upon the statistics, just like here in Minnesota, the probability of running into white people is much greater than the probability of running into black people, especially at places of employment, shopping, colleges, and the like, unless one lives under a South Africa like apartheid that creates racial separation. As I noted, I exist in a predominantly white area and in living my life 90% of the new people I meet are white. If I was single it would therefore be much more probable and hence easy to meet white women than black women. Obviously you understand very little about the challenges of being a numeric minority. This is one of the man reasons why black people form so many “black” organizations, clubs and networks. This is a means of black people getting to meet other black people in an area that’s dominated by other races or ethnicities. You will not find these black organizations in black Africa because blacks dominate.
There is no statistics that says that good black guys are scarce and rare. That is simply your opinion that I countered with my opinion. Moreover, a good black man to one woman might not be considered a good black man to another women. The fact is that many women are attracted to the “Ladies man”, regardless of race. Then they “settle” for a “good guy” only after they get burned out from trying to tame the “bad boy ladies man”.
As far as Africa goes, the things you noted have nothing to do with the institution of marriage. The fact is that the institution of marriage in Africa is much stronger than the institution of marriage in the west among those of African descent. You talking about aids and sexual promiscuity are totally different topics. The fact remains that the disintegration of the family unit, among black people, is more acute in the West than it is in Africa. That is an undisputable fact. Hence, there is something about the West, obviously, that is contributing to the disintegration of the black family unit.
Again, my point all along is that societies or groups where the male is no longer needed for economic survival, the more matriarchal the family becomes. I would venture to guess that in terms of class, that the rich have the highest rates of marriage due to the fact that the man is rich enough to provide for a family. I would also venture to guess that marriage is weaker among the poor, in Western nations, because the man cannot provide enough to take care of the family and the women does not want to put up with such a man when she or the government can assume the economic burden. Given that black rates of poverty are 3 times that of whites, it’s easy to see why this is more acute in the black community
You desperately wanna prove YOUR POINT. Toronto isn't even majority Anglo-White any more.
It's an overwhelmingly multi-cultural city, multi-racial city.
Heck, last time I came across a Scottish=looking redhead I called him a rare species (he laughed of course).
You are mixing up metropolitan Toronto, with the city proper. The city proper's Black population is more than 200 000, and the Metro is closer to half a million.
Within the city proper, certain areas are VERY Black and Brown and Chinese and Jewish and....whatever.
Immigrants are coming in every day.....mostly Black (a lot of Africans lately) South East Asian and Chinese.
In other words, Blacks here are not blueberries in a milk bowl. They're more like berries in a fruit salad. Yeah, Greater Toronto looks like an ethnic fruit salad. You can compare it to LA or Houston or New York.
Plus, certain towns and areas in the Greater Toronto area (Brampton, North Etobicoke, Scarborough, Pickering, Whitby) have an unusually high % of Black and Brown people.
So your theory that a Black person would have a hard time finding a Black mate is plain presumptuous.
The problem is not that there aren't enough Blacks. The problem is that a lot of Black families and women, and children (especially young men) here experience the same problems as Blacks in the US.
You don't know this place. And you can't draw conclusions based on stats, unless you actually research it in detail.
Blacks here may not be ghoettoized by the White community, but just like Jews, they create their own ghettos, anyway.
At the same time, the % of inter-marriage between various ethnic groups is HUGE. My neighbor is a world-famous Asian chef whose mixed kids look totally White. Two of them even have blue eyes. Another neighbor is a White-looking, Status Indian (half-German), married to a Japanese-Canadian. The combinations here are endless. The Somali guy is dating an Anglo gal. The half-Palestinian-half-Chinese guy just married a girl from Florida.
In the absence of racism and ethnic tribalism, people marry people they have stuff in common with....not based on their skin color and origin.
Anyhow, you REFUSE to address the major problem I addressed in my earlier post, and keep diverting the discussion to statistics and probability.
The BIG PROBLEM in this room, and in Black America are FATHERLESS CHILDREN.
You can dress it up anyway you want, make any excuse you want, but the ultimate responsibility for these kids lies with their parents. These kids NEED FATHERS TOO.
I am SICK AND TIRED of EXCUSES.
You can go on making them too.
Last edited by SadieMirsade; 02-25-2012 at 12:09 PM..
From an outsider's perspective (as I am white), it's my observation that the problems in the African-American community can be equally attributed among the men and women. That's not to minimize the shortcomings of the men. And I would say the same thing about dysfunctional communities of other races. The women set the expected level of standard of the men.
I also disagree that economics is an accurate predictor of matriarchal/patriarchal tendencies. There are plenty of examples throughout the world of rich matriarchal families/cultures and poor patriarchal families/cultures.
You desperately wanna prove YOUR POINT. Toronto isn't even majority Anglo-White any more.
It's an overwhelmingly multi-cultural city, multi-racial city.
Heck, last time I came across a Scottish=looking redhead I called him a rare species (he laughed of course).
You are mixing up metropolitan Toronto, with the city proper. The city proper's Black population is more than 200 000, and the Metro is closer to half a million.
Within the city proper, certain areas are VERY Black and Brown and Chinese and Jewish and....whatever.
Immigrants are coming in every day.....mostly Black (a lot of Africans lately) South East Asian and Chinese.
And you are not trying to prove any point? LOL. City limits mean nothing. They are just municiple boundaries that do not impact dating choices and options as people travel freely from city to suburbs in Metro areas. Hence, the majority of people living in metro Toronto are "White" notwithstanding the much smaller city proper demographics. I live in the suburbs but work in the city and the people that I met are from all over the metro area and hence if I were single the entire metro serves as a pool for my dating options. Thus, its obfuscation to try to draw distinctions between the demographics of the city vs suburbs especially when you are not being specific about the black gals that you know that you are basing your world views about people on.
You keep talking about black and brown and Chinese like they are all one. We are talking about the probability of encounters for black people to meet other black people in a metro area that they are less than 8% of the population, or as you say by your numbers, 10% of the metro population. Again, whether there are lots of browns and others......they are not black which still means that the odds of finding someone who is not black are greater than they are of fiding someone who is black. My daughter even has questions in her third grade math of such elementary probabilities. For example: If was a dart board that was 10 black, 15% brown, 60% white and the rest others, what color would have the greatest probability of the dart landing on? Obviously the color with the greatest surface area.
Quote:
In other words, Blacks here are not blueberries in a milk bowl. They're more like berries in a fruit salad. Yeah, Greater Toronto looks like an ethnic fruit salad. You can compare it to LA or Houston or New York.
Plus, certain towns and areas in the Greater Toronto area (Brampton, North Etobicoke, Scarborough, Pickering, Whitby) have an unusually high % of Black and Brown people.
So your theory that a Black person would have a hard time finding a Black mate is plain presumptuous.
In the US concentrations of blacks generally represent poor or "ghetto" areas that generally have high levels of unemployment and poverty. Thus, if one is looking for a mate in these high concentration areas they are going to run across males without jobs or much to offer these women. Then males with more to offer are more scattered througout the metro area. Thats how it is in the US if you are saying Toronoto is like US cities. Again, "good men" was never defined and where these black women you know, who you base your world opinion on, looked for black men was never mentioned. Furthermore, these women must have been very permiscous if they went through the majority of the 250,000 black males in metro toronto to know that they were not good men. Maybe the women were simply not attractive and black men had better options. Maybe they were shy and did not venture out much. There are countless possibilities other than to conclude there are no good black men.....unless one is simply predisposed to beleive that.
Quote:
The problem is not that there aren't enough Blacks. The problem is that a lot of Black families and women, and children (especially young men) here experience the same problems as Blacks in the US.
And what is that?
Quote:
You don't know this place. And you can't draw conclusions based on stats, unless you actually research it in detail.
Blacks here may not be ghoettoized by the White community, but just like Jews, they create their own ghettos, anyway.
Well, you don't know the US either then. I have been to Toronto many times. It's one of my favorite places, as I am sure you have visited the US.
Quote:
At the same time, the % of inter-marriage between various ethnic groups is HUGE. My neighbor is a world-famous Asian chef whose mixed kids look totally White. Two of them even have blue eyes. Another neighbor is a White-looking, Status Indian (half-German), married to a Japanese-Canadian. The combinations here are endless. The Somali guy is dating an Anglo gal. The half-Palestinian-half-Chinese guy just married a girl from Florida.
In the absence of racism and ethnic tribalism, people marry people they have stuff in common with....not based on their skin color and origin.
Well....just like you took this thread off topic you have taken your off topic....off topic. Again, your point was that good black men are scarce, which quite frankly, is a racist statement. Now you are talking about interacial rates which have nothing to do with what you said before and the dissent I offered. I don't care who marries who.....I do care when people make racist statements about black people.
Quote:
Anyhow, you REFUSE to address the major problem I addressed in my earlier post, and keep diverting the discussion to statistics and probability.
The BIG PROBLEM in this room, and in Black America are FATHERLESS CHILDREN.
You just said that the situation in Canada was the same as the US. Please make up your mind. A child cannot be born without a father providing providing the sperm. Because a man is not marrieed to a women does not mean that they are "fatherless". Your defintion of father seems to mean someone married and I reject that. You can site all the statistics you want about single black women but that does not mean that a man is not involved in that womens life or that the father of the child is not involved in the childs life. The courts generally grant custody to women and if the women wants to be an azz about it she can make it hard for the father to take an active role in the childs life.
I am not one who tries to project outward from my personal experiences to make a point, because I have no proof that what I see is the norm or an anomoly. However, the vast majority of women I know who are single with kids have ACTIVE fathers in their lives and the main impediment to the father spending more time with the children is not the father....but the attitude of the mother.
Quote:
You can dress it up anyway you want, make any excuse you want, but the ultimate responsibility for these kids lies with their parents. These kids NEED FATHERS TOO.
I am SICK AND TIRED of EXCUSES.
You can go on making them too.
Its interesting that you do not consider your reasoning EXCUSES for the impact of the west upon the lives of black people. To me people like you are simply making excuses for the role the west has played in all of this.
Corrections about Canada. There is a history of Black oppression in Canada. I posted many examples in that forum and due to the fact that Canada is only 3% Black, it isn't as obvious. Then, to top that off, the Black people there have roots in the US and the Caribbean. So, they brought that psyche with them. This oppression has occurred in the firm of segregation, under the guise of urban renewal, covering up of history of people of African descent, slavery/servitude, race riots and other forms of discrimination. I can post examples if requested.
Also, what Indentured mentioned is real in terms of family structure, women's roles, economics and so on is real and occurs across racial lines. It just effects people of certain backgrounds differently to different realities socio-historically among various groups of people. It is very complex and isn't as simple as we think.
That is total BS!!!! 64% is the rate of children born out of wedlock and NOT, I repeat NOT, the % of black children who are raised without a father. That is total BS. Not being married does not translate to being raised without a father.
I even question the brookings findings. Marriage is a social construct while sex and birth are biological constructs. Hence, social norms is the glue to maintaining the social construct of mariage. When social norms change then it impacts upon marriage.
The thing that has consitantly changed is the growing independence of women. The growing independence of women has impacted the white population most profoundly via a decline in the number of births and the age of which women give birth as many women have become career oriented to the degree that they see having children as impediments to career advancement as many are in college or starting careers in the prime child birthing years. However, given that white males still dominated occupationally as the heads of companies and the general big money earners in this society, they are still seen as strong providers in the white community. However, among poorer whites, the rate of out of wedlock births have had a similar impact as it has had in the black community, but the overall rate of white poverty is so much lower than the overall rate of black poverty that it does not skew the numbers for whites as it does blacks. The reason this point is important is because new birth disproportionately come from the poor and the fact that black poverty is 3 times the rate of white poverty skews the out of wedlock birth rate for blacks.
The thing about America is that we became a society that lost its moral compass. Shame has always been a major means of upholding sociatal norms. To bring shame on the family or ones parents, or should I say to prevent such, is the glue that keep many cultures famlies and traditions strong. America became a society of individuals. It created a "me" generation that rejected collectivism for individualism. We are a society of individual freedoms that has pushed the envelope of individual freedom that comes at the expense of collective institutions.....like the family. Thus, there is no longer any shame in having children out of wedlock as it was in my parents generation. The more prevelent it became the more accepted it became as well, especially in poor communities. The more one sees something the more it becomes acceptable. These images then start to show up on TV shows and people assume its ok. Art may immitate life first then life starts immitating art. If one simply looks at the TV shows of the 50's and the TV shows today and how those shows help to shape the image of the family.......you can see that what we are shown today is generlaly not healthy families. We see kids who talk to parents any kind of way. We see shows about cheating parents, single parents, dysfunctional families, we see perverse realitiy shows etc. Is it any wonder that certain cultures find the spread of American culture destructive to their collective institutions of religion and family?
So America is going through great moral erosion that is impacting the poor the most, as well as a changing of gender roles.
I even question the brookings findings. Marriage is a social construct while sex and birth are biological constructs. Hence, social norms is the glue to maintaining the social construct of mariage. When social norms change then it impacts upon marriage.
The thing that has consitantly changed is the growing independence of women. The growing independence of women has impacted the white population most profoundly via a decline in the number of births and the age of which women give birth as many women have become career oriented to the degree that they see having children as impediments to career advancement as many are in college or starting careers in the prime child birthing years. However, given that white males still dominated occupationally as the heads of companies and the general big money earners in this society, they are still seen as strong providers in the white community. However, among poorer whites, the rate of out of wedlock births have had a similar impact as it has had in the black community, but the overall rate of white poverty is so much lower than the overall rate of black poverty that it does not skew the numbers for whites as it does blacks. The reason this point is important is because new birth disproportionately come from the poor and the fact that black poverty is 3 times the rate of white poverty skews the out of wedlock birth rate for blacks.
The thing about America is that we became a society that lost its moral compass. Shame has always been a major means of upholding sociatal norms. To bring shame on the family or ones parents, or should I say to prevent such, is the glue that keep many cultures famlies and traditions strong. America became a society of individuals. It created a "me" generation that rejected collectivism for individualism. We are a society of individual freedoms that has pushed the envelope of individual freedom that comes at the expense of collective institutions.....like the family. Thus, there is no longer any shame in having children out of wedlock as it was in my parents generation. The more prevelent it became the more accepted it became as well, especially in poor communities. The more one sees something the more it becomes acceptable. These images then start to show up on TV shows and people assume its ok. Art may immitate life first then life starts immitating art. If one simply looks at the TV shows of the 50's and the TV shows today and how those shows help to shape the image of the family.......you can see that what we are shown today is generlaly not healthy families. We see kids who talk to parents any kind of way. We see shows about cheating parents, single parents, dysfunctional families, we see perverse realitiy shows etc. Is it any wonder that certain cultures find the spread of American culture destructive to their collective institutions of religion and family?
So America is going through great moral erosion that is impacting the poor the most, as well as a changing of gender roles.
I am sorry INDENTURED SERVANT, but it's really difficult to have a rational discussion with you.
Why?
Because you're a priori A TRIBALIST.
Members of your tribe can do no wrong. They're the greatest victims, therefore, anything they do is a consequence of their victimhood, therefore, they're REALLY not guilty of anything....
And we're all just a bunch of racists for suggesting that even victims and descendants of victims have to show some accountability and responsibility....
if not for the sake of the society-at-large, then for the sake of their own progeny, their own families, their own community.
Discussing this issue with you is
Kinda like discussing the status of occupied West Bank Palestinians with a radical Brooklyn Zionist.....
His tribe can do no wrong....either.
They're also always victims, and can't do no wrong.....
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