Grosse Pointes - Would you? (Detroit, Harper Woods: home, catholic schools, university)

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

Originally Posted by Marty711

In the case of GP schools, how many kids are eligible for reduced lunch? 5-10%? I doubt its a very high number. The state average is around 35%. Are GP teachers worse because 10% are eligible for it? I don't think so. It also makes the assumption that lower income students are automatically bad students and high income ones are automatically good students. As someone whose wife had access to reduced lunch when she was in school, its kind of insulting to imply that. She went on to one of the top liberal arts colleges and has a doctorate. Obviously, lower income students do tend to struggle more for many reasons, but there's plenty out there who do just fine for themselves.

Really, this thread goes to the heart of Metro Detroit's woes and why it isn't appealing to many people. That is, the area is so divided when it comes to income, race, etc. Lower income people are nearby, so property values stagnate and upper income people flee farther out or are hesitant to move in. Clearly, other metro areas suffer this, but it seems to happen more in Detroit than in any other place.

Does it make the assumption that individual students are "bad"? Not at all. When a school has a large amount of low income students, are there usually more problems with behavior, declining test scores and drugs? Absolutely. Do you think it's a coincidence that the lowest performing school districts have the highest number of low income students (and vice versa)? I'm not making an assumption here. These are verifiable statistics. You can argue what's behind them or how they should be fixed, but you can't argue that the correlation between the two variables exist.

It's not at all unique to Metro Detroit. If you looked at desirable vs. undesirable school districts across the country you'll find the same trends. Why do you think all of the school data aggregator sites report on the number of students who qualify for free lunch programs?

Over a 1/3 of students qualify for free/discounted lunch in some GP schools.

People would be better off citing facts instead of emotion.

[jonnynonos]

Originally Posted by Marty711

Really, this thread goes to the heart of Metro Detroit's woes and why it isn't appealing to many people. That is, the area is so divided when it comes to income, race, etc. Lower income people are nearby, so property values stagnate and upper income people flee farther out or are hesitant to move in. Clearly, other metro areas suffer this, but it seems to happen more in Detroit than in any other place.

There are probably a few schools in the country that look like FAME but I don't think, by and large, things are really much better in other places, they just look that way. Most of what passes for "diversity" in other areas is by and large overlapping populations that live in the same zip code or community area but have nothing to do with each other. Sometimes people will cite Rogers Park or Hyde Park in Chicago as the "most diverse zip code in the country," but if you think the Orthodox Jews, first-generation Hispanics and white hipsters who populate them are getting together to play cards on the weekend, or have much of anything to do with each other at all for the most part, you are sadly mistaken.

Saying that a school won't be judged by the income level of people attending it is a nice thought but very naive. It's not personal. The stereotypical Grosse Pointer wouldn't send his kids to Westland or Garden City public schools either; hell they'd be f**king horrified at the thought.

Stop the presses, rich people try to shelter kids! No s**t. That's the way it is and that's the way it always will be, despite the limousine liberal lip service pleasantries.

[where_now1]

Diversity is great when it means different cultures, races, religions, etc. Diversity is not good when it means exposure to low income/section 8. I challenge anyone to show me one community that has improved in any meaningful way as a result of an increase in the low income/section 8 population. Of course there are many exceptions to this where a low income/section 8 individual has bettered his/her lot but the general trend is clear. The same could be said for the future of a child born to a single mother. This is not a value judgement but a fact supported by most data.

In any case, my sense is that a bet on many parts of the Pointes will boil down to the future of Detroit and regional economy. One can look at many cities (New York for example) where many neighborhoods improved dramatically as jobs and money came to the area. Whether Detroit area will be similar is a topic that has already been debated many times on this forum.

Does anyone have any information on relative tax rates in Pointes and other similar communities?

[Marty711]

Originally Posted by jonnynonos

There are probably a few schools in the country that look like FAME but I don't think, by and large, things are really much better in other places, they just look that way. Most of what passes for "diversity" in other areas is by and large overlapping populations that live in the same zip code or community area but have nothing to do with each other. Sometimes people will cite Rogers Park or Hyde Park in Chicago as the "most diverse zip code in the country," but if you think the Orthodox Jews, first-generation Hispanics and white hipsters who populate them are getting together to play cards on the weekend, or have much of anything to do with each other at all for the most part, you are sadly mistaken.

Saying that a school won't be judged by the income level of people attending it is a nice thought but very naive. It's not personal. The stereotypical Grosse Pointer wouldn't send his kids to Westland or Garden City public schools either; hell they'd be f**king horrified at the thought.

Stop the presses, rich people try to shelter kids! No s**t. That's the way it is and that's the way it always will be, despite the limousine liberal lip service pleasantries.

Actually, the shelters are going away. The days of what you describe are largely over as virtually every district in the state felt the effects of this over the past decade one way or another. Here's a report by GPPS Board Member Brendan Walsh. It lays out FRLE at GP schools and many of its peers. It also looks at the correlation between testing and FLRE enrollment. While FRLE did explode at GP, it also exploded in Novi, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, Rochester, Troy, etc. If you took Poupard and Harper Woods out, GP's FRLE growth isnt much different than any of the others Walsh compares it to. You'll also notice that GPPS overall FRLE percentage is virtually the exact same as these other school districts.

Are Bloomfield, Novi, Troy, Birmingham, and Rochester declining places? Since so many people are apparently ruling out GP due to its FRLE growth, perhaps these places should be ruled out too.

[jonnynonos]

You are correct, I think, that Grosse Pointe's fate is largely tied into the fate of Michigan and Detroit. Right now it is not trending in a positive direction. The state continues to lose population (not in aggregate, but in people moving in vs. moving out) and Detroit continues to hemorrhage population.

But I think it is too up in the air to make much of a prediction and, further, I don't think you are going to see anything too dramatic in the next 20 years.

[jonnynonos]

Originally Posted by Marty711

Actually, the shelters are going away. The days of what you describe are largely over as virtually every district in the state felt the effects of this over the past decade one way or another. Here's a report by GPPS Board Member Brendan Walsh. It lays out FRLE at GP schools and many of its peers. It also looks at the correlation between testing and FLRE enrollment. While FRLE did explode at GP, it also exploded in Novi, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills, Rochester, Troy, etc. If you took Poupard and Harper Woods out, GP's FRLE growth isnt much different than any of the others Walsh compares it to. You'll also notice that GPPS overall FRLE percentage is virtually the exact same as these other school districts.

Are Bloomfield, Novi, Troy, Birmingham, and Rochester declining places? Since so many people are apparently ruling out GP due to its FRLE growth, perhaps these places should be ruled out too.

I don't see how this report address what I wrote in any way, shape or form.

[PA Born]

Originally Posted by Marty711

If you took Poupard and Harper Woods out, GP's FRLE growth isnt much different than any of the others Walsh compares it to. You'll also notice that GPPS overall FRLE percentage is virtually the exact same as these other school districts.

No, none of this is true. The FRLE growth has been much faster at GP than in these other districts.

And why are you saying "if you took Poupard and Harper Woods out"? That's part of GP Schools. You're basically saying if you remove the FRLE parts of the district, the FRLE % isn't much different than other places. That's kind of silly logic.

I mean, I could say "DPS is a rich district, you just have to remove all the FRLE kids, and suddely Detroit is the same as Bloomfield". Well, yeah, I guess, but makes no logical sense.

Originally Posted by Marty711

Are Bloomfield, Novi, Troy, Birmingham, and Rochester declining places? Since so many people are apparently ruling out GP due to its FRLE growth, perhaps these places should be ruled out too.

None of these places have comparable FRLE growth, so no.

[GrossePointer]

I live in Grosse Pointe Farms on Touraine Rd. in a large older home. I feel like the people commenting on GP Schools don't have a real perspective on them. Someone said Harper Woods was in GP's district which is false. Although I have seen more families opting for schools like University-Liggett and St. Claire the public schools are still stable and good. One recomendation I would make is to buy in the lower range of your budget. Prices in GP are still on the decline but will most likely stablize in 5-10 years depending on what happens in Detroit. I think spending over 1 million on a house would be a foolish investment.

[GreyDay]

Originally Posted by GrossePointer

I live in Grosse Pointe Farms on Touraine Rd. in a large older home. I feel like the people commenting on GP Schools don't have a real perspective on them. Someone said Harper Woods was in GP's district which is false. Although I have seen more families opting for schools like University-Liggett and St. Claire the public schools are still stable and good. One recomendation I would make is to buy in the lower range of your budget. Prices in GP are still on the decline but will most likely stablize in 5-10 years depending on what happens in Detroit. I think spending over 1 million on a house would be a foolish investment.

Have you seen what tuition goes for at the private school off Cook road these days? That would add roughly $250k to the price of a house- that you would never recoup.

So 2 kids + private school = 500k house+ 500k tuition. Thus the importance of having an excellent public school system. Private schools may be good but not that good.

[GrossePointer]

For St. Clare the tuition for 2 children is 6,300 combined. 6,300 times 9 is 56,700 far from 500,000. For the high schools the cost is higher (around 10,000) but even that is nowhere near 500,000. University-Liggett is much higher but realy I was just using them as an example of a private school. Most of the people on my street sent their kids to Catholic schools and are happy knowing that they have a more direct involvment in their child's education. Clearly someone spending 800,000 to 1,200,000 on a house can afford to invest around 150,000 in their child's education.