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What you said has a lot of truth from a historical perspective, but this is 2014. If this LBP incident happened long ago, maybe I could understand. But nowadays you have such a large percentage of blacks out in Oakland County and elsewhere living no differently from whites. How could they justify this if they were victim to white programming? Obviously there is a difference between those successful/succeeding blacks and those blacks who claim (i.e. lie) that they can go to the gas station at 2am without any fear whatsoever. The difference is the former will admit that white people aren't so bad after all, the latter are afraid to do so because they want to perpetuate the myth that if it weren't for white man, they (blacks) would all be living in perfect harmony.
And it puzzles me that you, IS, of all people pretend you don't understand this. You are exactly the type of person that black people should emulate: intelligent, articulate, not afraid to live and work among whites, etc. But you would be despised by these black leaders who would rather you live in their black ghetto and complain about how white man isn't handing you your reparations.
Well, many people have served in the Middle East wars of the last two decades. However, I just read a study that said that 48,000 Iraqi and Afghanistan vets are or have been recently homeless. Furthermore, thousands have come back with missing limbs, with post traumatic stress disorder, brain injuries the more. On the other hand, thousands have come back from those wars and integrated seamlessly back into society as productive members of society. How would one account for that? Why did they not all fail or all succeed? Would it be fair to use those who came back fine, from those wars, to discredit or caste aspersion or give reason to look down upon those who did not come back fine….or who did not make it back at all?
Inherent to your comments seems to be the expectation or assumption that some blacks making it discredits the reason/circumstance given for other blacks not making it. You seem to suggest that because some blacks made it….then all should have made it and you seem to use the success of some to discredit the reasons for failures of others. Would you deny that the war was responsible for causing problems for a lot of people despite the fact that many thousands of people experienced he war and re-acclimated fine? Why would you not recognize the same variability and uniqueness of circumstances in the black struggle against racial oppression? Even though two people may have been in the same war, it does not follow that they both had the same experiences in degree or kind, and neither have blacks, resulting in variability of impact and outcome, as well as the variability if individual capacities and abilities, the permutations makes every situation unique.
Variability manifest due to the variability of individuals and the variability of circumstances (in degree or kind). Hence, some people making it and others not is simply the variability of nature.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-30-2014 at 08:38 AM..
Oh, I completely understand why there is some variability. I'm not denying that there should even be some variability. Heck, every other race/ethnicity of people have variations, and so should blacks. I'm just complaining about the propagandists who try to keep people in the lower end of expectations from moving up.
To use your analogy, I would say a fairer comparison is to consider all those who come back from war injured, and ask why is it that some overcome their disabilities to go on and live productive lives while others sit on the street corners holding a "Please help - wounded vet" sign. The former has hope and confidence in themselves and the other has been led to believe that injured vets have no hope and are resigned to begging.
You don't see wounded vets "leaders" complaining that Iraqis/Afghanistiis should take back what they said of American soldiers because they find it offensive. Wounded vets don't (or shouldn't) give an f--- what Iraqiis/Afghanistaniis think of them.
Oh, I completely understand why there is some variability. I'm not denying that there should even be some variability. Heck, every other race/ethnicity of people have variations, and so should blacks. I'm just complaining about the propagandists who try to keep people in the lower end of expectations from moving up.
To use your analogy, I would say a fairer comparison is to consider all those who come back from war injured, and ask why is it that some overcome their disabilities to go on and live productive lives while others sit on the street corners holding a "Please help - wounded vet" sign. The former has hope and confidence in themselves and the other has been led to believe that injured vets have no hope and are resigned to begging.
You don't see wounded vets "leaders" complaining that Iraqis/Afghanistiis should take back what they said of American soldiers because they find it offensive. Wounded vets don't (or shouldn't) give an f--- what Iraqiis/Afghanistaniis think of them.
It happens because that is the variability that manifest in the uniqueness of each individual. Some people are wired differently, as INDIVIDUALS, to better handle trials and tribulations, while others fold up. If the trials and tribulations were inflicted upon the individuals by others....then the fact that some survived, notwithstanding, does not mean that the circumstance was no less the cause of the others failure. It still can be argued, thus, that the failure is the result of the circumstances imposed. Following that logic, if society as a whole is responsible for the infliction of that burden, which caused or contributed to the failure, then yes.....society should have a responsibility and someone should fight that society be responsible. A Darwinian approach would be to let those who were not strong enough to handle the circumstance die off and not reproduce.....as opposed to helping them survive.
The 50+ year record shows, Detroiters are helpless and cannot self-govern. I'm not sure what you are looking for from me. We’re the victims! Has subsidies to Detroit over the last 50 years gone up, stayed about the same or gone down?
I lived in St Clair Shores - I had to move because Detroiters imposed a tax on me – school of choice.
I lived in west Oakland County - I had to move because Detroiters imposed a tax on me - Art and Zoo millage.
Last July I voted with my feet and moved to Washtenaw County. Now Governor Rick Snyder wants to tax me again for the Art because Detroiters were poor stewards of THEIR future and THEIR pension plans. Rick Snyder’s $350 million bailout of Detroit after Detroit just received $300 mill federal 'help' last September all in the midst of a BK.
Where were the Detroit pensioners when all those school computers were stolen or when Detroit Police Chief Hart was stuffing his ceiling with that $2.6 mill? This happened on the watch of the pensioner but nobody is responsible.
And then you cite unemployment of Detroiters. Detroit is packed with churches, what happened to Thessalonians 3:10? Do you consider it odd it takes suburbanite know-how to build bicycles and other what-nots in Detroit. C’mon, that’s the ‘give me’ mentality in the animal analogy.
A few years ago we typed about a low barrier to entry business, U-Pick raspberry farms along I-94. Detroiters just couldn’t get that together either. But if suburbanites come in and plant non-bearing fruit trees, that’s good. Wait until the wildfires begin five years out.
It happens because that is the variability that manifest in the uniqueness of each individual. Some people are wired differently, as INDIVIDUALS, to better handle trials and tribulations, while others fold up. If the trials and tribulations were inflicted upon the individuals by others....then the fact that some survived, notwithstanding, does not mean that the circumstance was no less the cause of the others failure. It still can be argued, thus, that the failure is the result of the circumstances imposed. Following that logic, if society as a whole is responsible for the infliction of that burden, which caused or contributed to the failure, then yes.....society should have a responsibility and someone should fight that society be responsible. A Darwinian approach would be to let those who were not strong enough to handle the circumstance die off and not reproduce.....as opposed to helping them survive.
Agreed that there is some individual variability and that society has some responsibility of leveling the playing field. What I have a problem with is those who perpetuate under-expectations by constantly dividing us into oppressors and victims. Okay, I'll grant you that LBPs comments were distasteful, but for the black leader to blow it out of proportion by claiming that LBP called blacks savages and that somehow what LBP or the white man has to say about Detroit is what is holding them back when it is really other things much closer to home is a disservice to the cause he claims to lead.
Agreed that there is some individual variability and that society has some responsibility of leveling the playing field. What I have a problem with is those who perpetuate under-expectations by constantly dividing us into oppressors and victims. Okay, I'll grant you that LBPs comments were distasteful, but for the black leader to blow it out of proportion by claiming that LBP called blacks savages and that somehow what LBP or the white man has to say about Detroit is what is holding them back when it is really other things much closer to home is a disservice to the cause he claims to lead.
First, oppression and its legacy created the division. I do not know how one can talk about and fight for society addressing this legacy, though, in a way that does not create division. Society is averse to hearing the wrongs that it has done and when people force them to hear or address it.....people want to kill the messenger.
Secondly, words are POWERFUL! They accommodate self fulfilling propheicies. If areas that blacks live or are growing in percentage of the population are shunned and looked down upon by the white demographic, the area will decline or not reach its full market potential. We live in a market driven economy. 70% of the market in SouthEastern Michigan is white. Whites also have much greater income and wealth than blacks, along with the much greater numbers. Hence, value or price is a function of market supply and demand. Hence, if a geographic area loses the interest of 70% of the people market and 85% of the money market, the geographic area will decline in value......in a market driven model. Whites have talked down Detroit for decades, which killed white demand for the era, led to divestment and the devaluation of the city and many of the problems that it is having now. LBP fanned those flames in his interview.
People around the country are only interested in Detroit to do a "Ruins Safari". That is consequence of decades of the mindset like LBP.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-30-2014 at 09:47 AM..
The 50+ year record shows, Detroiters are helpless and cannot self-govern. I'm not sure what you are looking for from me. We’re the victims! Has subsidies to Detroit over the last 50 years gone up, stayed about the same or gone down?
I lived in St Clair Shores - I had to move because Detroiters imposed a tax on me – school of choice.
I lived in west Oakland County - I had to move because Detroiters imposed a tax on me - Art and Zoo millage.
Last July I voted with my feet and moved to Washtenaw County. Now Governor Rick Snyder wants to tax me again for the Art because Detroiters were poor stewards of THEIR future and THEIR pension plans. Rick Snyder’s $350 million bailout of Detroit after Detroit just received $300 mill federal 'help' last September all in the midst of a BK.
Where were the Detroit pensioners when all those school computers were stolen or when Detroit Police Chief Hart was stuffing his ceiling with that $2.6 mill? This happened on the watch of the pensioner but nobody is responsible.
And then you cite unemployment of Detroiters. Detroit is packed with churches, what happened to Thessalonians 3:10? Do you consider it odd it takes suburbanite know-how to build bicycles and other what-nots in Detroit. C’mon, that’s the ‘give me’ mentality in the animal analogy.
A few years ago we typed about a low barrier to entry business, U-Pick raspberry farms along I-94. Detroiters just couldn’t get that together either. But if suburbanites come in and plant non-bearing fruit trees, that’s good. Wait until the wildfires begin five years out.
Wow, that world-class art institute really wads your panties.
Art, zoos, bailouts? You want to live in your RW fortress and pay only for what you use? You don't consider yourself part of a society? You don't believe in a greater good - only your own? That certainly is the right-wing view.
You keep dodging the real issue of job loss which Ayn Rand theologies like yours caused in the first place. Profit at all cost, utilize slave and child labor in foreign countries, then complain about the displaced at home. Pen them up and throw them table scraps - which will keep them alive but which they don't deserve. Fence in blue-collar Detroit residents to keep them in their place and out of your hair. Yeah, Patterson's complaint was basically that the "fence" already in place wasn't high enough.
Hello Rand Paul, R. Limbaugh, Fox "News", Paul Ryan, and much of the repub party. Sound familiar?
Go ahead and keep dodging the real issue, and continue with your Fox script of "blame the displaced which our policies and obstructionism caused".
BTW your tax money is going to museums of all kinds across the nation. Live with it. If you're not part of a society, then move to libertarian Somalia.
First, oppression and its legacy created the division. I do not know how one can talk about and fight for society addressing this legacy, though, in a way that does not create division. Society is averse to hearing the wrongs that it has done and when people force them to hear or address it.....people want to kill the messenger.
If a historian wants to talk about how horrible black people were treated by whites, I have no problem with that. It is a historical fact. What I have a problem with is people who are stuck in the mentality that this is 1860 and all the battles for equality have yet to be fought. The black leaders should be complaining about all the black people who are holding the city back, not some white guy who is known for his off-the-wall comments.
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Secondly, words are POWERFUL! They accommodate self fulfilling propheicies. If areas that blacks live or are growing in percentage of the population are shunned and looked down upon by the white demographic, the area will decline or not reach its full market potential. We live in a market driven economy. 70% of the market in SouthEastern Michigan is white. Whites also have much greater income and wealth than blacks, along with the much greater numbers. Hence, value or price is a function of market supply and demand. Hence, if a geographic area loses the interest of 70% of the people market and 85% of the money market, the geographic area will decline in value......in a market driven model. Whites have talked down Detroit for decades, which killed white demand for the era, led to divestment and the devaluation of the city and many of the problems that it is having now. LBP fanned those flames in his interview.
People around the country are only interested in Detroit to do a "Ruins Safari". That is consequence of decades of the mindset like LBP.
You conveniently left off the fact that even many blacks do not want to live in Detroit. And if property values are solely dependent on the value given them by white people, than why haven't property values declined in areas where Arabs, East Indian, Asian, Jews, Hispanics, etc. live? Why are white people living in and moving to black areas such as Indian Village, Corktown, Midtown, etc.? May I propose to you that it is not the skin color or ethnicity of an area that determines its value, but on how the residents treat their neighborhood and each other?
Again, LBP did not say a wall should be built around all the blacks living in Oakland County. His problem is not with black people. It is with a dysfunctional city whose residents either don't care or are actually proud of it.
If a historian wants to talk about how horrible black people were treated by whites, I have no problem with that. It is a historical fact. What I have a problem with is people who are stuck in the mentality that this is 1860 and all the battles for equality have yet to be fought. The black leaders should be complaining about all the black people who are holding the city back, not some white guy who is known for his off-the-wall comments.
The problem is that you are dependent upon the media for what "black leaders say". I dare say that unless one joins an organization and regularly follows a leader around to all his engagements and speeches, the only thing that they know that these leaders talk about is what the media shares. I do not know of any black leaders of significance, who do not address issues like crime, education, children born out of wedlock and the like. The media simply does not cover that.....that does not sell like a story about race sells. So you really should have a problem with the media.
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You conveniently left off the fact that even many blacks do not want to live in Detroit. And if property values are solely dependent on the value given them by white people, than why haven't property values declined in areas where Arabs, East Indian, Asian, Jews, Hispanics, etc. live? Why are white people living in and moving to black areas such as Indian Village, Corktown, Midtown, etc.? May I propose to you that it is not the skin color or ethnicity of an area that determines its value, but on how the residents treat their neighborhood and each other?
Yes...that is true....but is a more recent phenomenon. Keep in mind that the cities black population grew up until 2002, while the white population has been in decline since the 50's. Detroit became unattractive to many blacks only after things collapsed from the long term divestment and housing bubble.
Property values have not declined in those areas because those ethnics have higher per capita incomes than do blacks. Hence, more dollar demand to drive up or maintain prices. If a poor demographic is the only source of your market demand.....what impact do you think that will have on prices and values?
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Again, LBP did not say a wall should be built around all the blacks living in Oakland County. His problem is not with black people. It is with a dysfunctional city whose residents either don't care or are actually proud of it.
And how do you know what his problem is and what he is thinking? Be honest.....are you not projecting your problems and thinking on Detroit to be that of his? I am not saying that such is good or bad.....you might even be correct in that you two might think the same way.....however, you speak for him with a lot of confidence.....are you related?
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