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Old 06-27-2011, 05:00 PM
 
Location: north of Windsor, ON
1,900 posts, read 5,877,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieMirsade View Post
Are you forgetting about the rising tide of increasingly dysfunctional and permanently unemployed, under-educated Whites who will become a permanent presence in the near future?
They're already here in America, and worst of all, they're old enough to vote.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:45 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,954 posts, read 19,401,209 times
Reputation: 25424
Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieMirsade View Post
I take issue with your provocative label of "white-skinned black child". First of all, I said "light skinned", not "white skinned". Second of all, you are the one that made it a point to describe your child in those terms. Third, I don't disagree with you. In fact, I commend you for sending your child to the best school available regardless of race / skin color. My only intention was to emphasize what you said because I think there is a valid point that many people are not willing to discuss. In terms of color.....If you're black, you're black. Is it that cut and dry? I think your and your son's experience is a good example that proves otherwise. If you're not, you're NOT. You can have African ancestry, you can be socialized into the Black subculture, but then, and still be white (as in color)you're implying that inherently that subculture is always dysfunctional. I thought that is what you were implying, i.e. that black classmates are worse than Asian. In your rigid social construct of White-Black worlds, you obviously can't swallow anything beyond that, ...I can swallow the fact that there are good and bad whites, blacks, and Asians. I disagree with you that Asians are all positive influences. I know an Asian family that seems to have no morals: loud partying into the morning, numerous children out of wedlock, poor living conditions in the home, etc... and I think you'd better face reality, as most of future Americans are gonna look like Selena Gomez and my son (and he's waaaay whiter than her). I don't care how they look; I care how they live. I have no problem living among blacks or sending my children to a black school as long as they are "good" blacks and it is a "good" school. But I thought the point you were making is that there are no "good" black schools and that you had to resort to an Asian school.
In terms of socialization, my son's been socialized in ALL worlds. His entire life, he's traveled, he's been around very accepting Whites, very accepting Blacks, Jews, Moslems, Arabs, he's climbed the pyramids, seen Rome, and swam in
the Red Sea. Good. I won't be in denial and ignore the fact that being white of color can be an advantage. Among ignorant people, that may be the case. I would hope that people are going to judge your son by qualities other than skin color. But I'll also have to say that being ugly and white could be worse than being black and good looking. We live in a world driven by images, bits and bytes....and our primal instincts are much stronger than our social constructs and indoctrination. That may also be true among ignorant people. Personally, I rather be around considerate and intelligent people, and could care less about color and attractiveness (except for mating purposes ).

You're also implying that there is no hope for dysfunctional people, period. I am? I have great hope for dysfunctional people, but the first step is to acknowledge that they have dysfunction. I commend you, as it seems you appreciate this fact. I'd just like to know if anyone else has come to this conclusion and what steps can be taken to correct the dysfunction (besides sending black kids to Asian and white schools). Are you forgetting about the rising tide of increasingly dysfunctional and permanently unemployed, under-educated Whites who will become a permanent presence in the near future?
I haven't forgotten because I never knew it was the case to begin with. I'm not aware of a relative increase/decrease of dysfunction among whites compared to other races.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:01 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,954 posts, read 19,401,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
... When a White kid commits a dysfunctional act, it is "that is a dysfunctional kid". When Black kid does it, it is "that is a dysfuctional Black kid". That's the difference. Dysfunction from Blacks is often named "Black dysfuction" without naming dysfunction from Whites "White dysfunction". That is part of my problem. ...
But is that also true among blacks or only among whites? It would make sense that people of one race would more readily attribute "dysfunction" in another race to some easily explainable, albeit ignorant, genetic/racial cause. But I think ignorance and intelligence is equally distributed among races. I would hope that there are the same percentage of blacks who realize that all whites are not descendants of slaveholders and endowed with easy access to the privileged world of wealth and power as there are whites who realize that just because most blacks have come from challenging backgrounds does not mean that they don't have the same aspirations, intelligence, and good-intentions as whites.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. You sound like an intelligent thoughtful person, and I'm sure most whites will judge you fairly. Those that don't are ignorant and it is best not to have anything to do with them because racism is often only a superficial manifestation of deeper, more troubling, ignorance.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:25 AM
 
72 posts, read 149,848 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
... When a White kid commits a dysfunctional act, it is "that is a dysfunctional kid".
Actually, we call that a hate crime these days.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:55 AM
 
72,817 posts, read 62,160,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
But is that also true among blacks or only among whites? It would make sense that people of one race would more readily attribute "dysfunction" in another race to some easily explainable, albeit ignorant, genetic/racial cause. But I think ignorance and intelligence is equally distributed among races. I would hope that there are the same percentage of blacks who realize that all whites are not descendants of slaveholders and endowed with easy access to the privileged world of wealth and power as there are whites who realize that just because most blacks have come from challenging backgrounds does not mean that they don't have the same aspirations, intelligence, and good-intentions as whites.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. You sound like an intelligent thoughtful person, and I'm sure most whites will judge you fairly. Those that don't are ignorant and it is best not to have anything to do with them because racism is often only a superficial manifestation of deeper, more troubling, ignorance.
Maybe it would. I am mostly viewing this from the perspective of who I am around most often. What I described is what I hear most often. I guess for me, I sometimes feel attacked.

I know that most Whites didn't own slaves in the USA. I know that only a few did. I think the legacy of slavery, in combination with Jim Crow, has left some people rather cynical about things.

I am trying not to worry. I have been around Whites who have judged me fairly. I have also been around very ignorant people. Oddly enough, I am meeting more and more of them as a college student. I never thought I would. I think when I see things like this on the forums, it makes me wonder who it is. It could be my neighbor, or future neighbor.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:56 AM
 
72,817 posts, read 62,160,234 times
Reputation: 21773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Belle Grande View Post
Actually, we call that a hate crime these days.
Actually, it's called a hate crime if it involves a non-White victim and if the intention was hate. I am talking about general dysfunction.
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Old 06-28-2011, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 635,653 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
I haven't forgotten because I never knew it was the case to begin with. I'm not aware of a relative increase/decrease of dysfunction among whites compared to other races.
Open your eyes, and you'll see White dysfunction increasing, everywhere. Detroit isn't the epicenter of the world. Because of the enormity of Black dysfunction in Detroit, it's very easy to forget the enormity of the growing social dysfunction throughout the world. (Just read the latest reports on the UK, and you'll see what I'm talking about, and over there, the Trash is overwhelmingly white in color).
I appreciate your response and all the points you've made.
No, Asians aren't perfect either. We've found that out already. But, I wanted my kid EDUCATED and not just SOCIALIZED.
I feel like a preacher.
I could care less if he learns to play football.
Daily, I have to preach, "these are the skills the world needs, and this is what you MUST learn". At one point they called me a "Chinese Mother".
The truth is my son doesn't like school, and I have to sweat to make sure that he LEARNS. It's really not an issue of IQ or intelligence. He simply isn't a "bookie", and unfortunately for him, but most of world's knowledge is still transmitted through reading knowledge recorded in books.

I think you've made a valid point regarding "attitudes". One reason why I really appreciated Farrakhan and his "March". The next "March" could include all colors and races. I can see that you're really frustrated, (yet well meaning) and I know why.

Last edited by SadieMirsade; 06-28-2011 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 06-28-2011, 01:40 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,954 posts, read 19,401,209 times
Reputation: 25424
Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieMirsade View Post
Open your eyes, and you'll see White dysfunction increasing, everywhere. Detroit isn't the epicenter of the world. Because of the enormity of Black dysfunction in Detroit, it's very easy to forget the enormity of the growing social dysfunction throughout the world. (Just read the latest reports on the UK, and you'll see what I'm talking about, and over there, the Trash is overwhelmingly white in color).
But do you think that white dysfunction is increasing at a greater rate than black or Asian dysfunction?

Much of the reason that Asians have the reputation for intelligence is because it is the smart ones who immigrate to this country. The reason they have the reputation for discipline is because most Asian countries are, or were, very repressive and forced conformity upon the people. If it were not for the lasting legacy of slavery, we Americans would probably think that all blacks were intelligent, because only the intelligent ones would be able to afford to immigrate here. And if Africa has the same level of government enforced homogeneity instead of chaotic tribal warfare, most African immigrants would be as disciplined as Asians.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
348 posts, read 635,653 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
But do you think that white dysfunction is increasing at a greater rate than black or Asian dysfunction?

Much of the reason that Asians have the reputation for intelligence is because it is the smart ones who immigrate to this country. The reason they have the reputation for discipline is because most Asian countries are, or were, very repressive and forced conformity upon the people. If it were not for the lasting legacy of slavery, we Americans would probably think that all blacks were intelligent, because only the intelligent ones would be able to afford to immigrate here. And if Africa has the same level of government enforced homogeneity instead of chaotic tribal warfare, most African immigrants would be as disciplined as Asians.
I've lived (and traveled) a HUGE chunk of my life outside of North America.
It's not about repression. It's not about intelligence.
It's about pride and COMMITMENT.
For now, Asians are on a win-win-win because they LEARN SHAME, honesty, commitment, discipline, sacrifice. You don't need no government, and no Bible to teach and enforce that. It's a no-brainer. Commit fully to your children, your community, your society, and somehow, sooner or later that will usually be reciprocated.
I have a cousin whose IQ is about half of mine, but who was diligent, hard working, disciplined...and subsequently...has a much better career than mine.
You commit to your partner, your family, your children, to your studies, to your work.
You commit to decency, to living an honest, a dignified life. You commit to progress and success.
And I've also been around Africans who've arrived in North America as refugees.
No, they weren't the elite, but you know what?....their kids are doing well. The families I've known are religious (East African Moslems), their daughters attend school in hijabs, but the parents are FULLY committed to their kids' future (even when they can't stand each other any more), and for the sake of the kids....stick around, because for them, it's a matter of PRIDE, HONOUR and FAMILY LEGACY, that their kids succeed, become educated, useful, and productive members of society.
In fact, in one particular case, as soon as the youngest boy entered college, the parents parted. Their goal was to make sure, that he was doing well. Their marriage had fallen apart a long time ago, but they stuck it out for the kids.

Now, show me White Americans who make those kinds of sacrifices for their kids....any more. I honestly don't know how you can be in denial about the direction of White America.

The simple fact that Bush lied SO MUCH, and set up Colin Powell for the fall,tells it all. I mean, there have been no repercussions for the lying and practically bankrupting the country in the process. Isn't that pretty dysfunctional, when the LEADER of a nation, can LIE act like the lowest Detroit hood criminal....GET AWAY WITH IT...and then write a book like nothing happened.
The simple fact that a Black man succeeded that goof, says a lot too. It's not only about the growing tolerance in White America, but it's also about the fact that White America lately produces a lotta goofs. Idiots, who can't tell their ##s from ####.
All I can say from following the Bush-Powell scenario, is that Bush acted like a criminal from the hood, and Powell like a WASP patrician of yesteryear.

I'm not gonna get into details of social dysfunction in countries with majority White populations....but please, do look at the stats....and start with the divorce rates and the numbers of kids born out of wedlock (to mostly white parents) in the UK, Sweden, France, Ukraine, Russia, Germany....etc. Look at the stats for alcoholism, drug usage, HIV infections....etc. Also check the stats for the numbers of single mothers living on social assistance in the UK and throughout Europe. Check out the stats for the abnormally low birthrates....etc.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:54 PM
 
72,817 posts, read 62,160,234 times
Reputation: 21773
Quote:
Originally Posted by SadieMirsade View Post
I've lived (and traveled) a HUGE chunk of my life outside of North America.
It's not about repression. It's not about intelligence.
It's about pride and COMMITMENT.
For now, Asians are on a win-win-win because they LEARN SHAME, honesty, commitment, discipline, sacrifice. You don't need no government, and no Bible to teach and enforce that. It's a no-brainer. Commit fully to your children, your community, your society, and somehow, sooner or later that will usually be reciprocated.
I have a cousin whose IQ is about half of mine, but who was diligent, hard working, disciplined...and subsequently...has a much better career than mine.
You commit to your partner, your family, your children, to your studies, to your work.
You commit to decency, to living an honest, a dignified life. You commit to progress and success.
And I've also been around Africans who've arrived in North America as refugees.
No, they weren't the elite, but you know what?....their kids are doing well. The families I've known are religious (East African Moslems), their daughters attend school in hijabs, but the parents are FULLY committed to their kids' future (even when they can't stand each other any more), and for the sake of the kids....stick around, because for them, it's a matter of PRIDE, HONOUR and FAMILY LEGACY, that their kids succeed, become educated, useful, and productive members of society.
In fact, in one particular case, as soon as the youngest boy entered college, the parents parted. Their goal was to make sure, that he was doing well. Their marriage had fallen apart a long time ago, but they stuck it out for the kids.

Now, show me White Americans who make those kinds of sacrifices for their kids....any more. I honestly don't know how you can be in denial about the direction of White America.

The simple fact that Bush lied SO MUCH, and set up Colin Powell for the fall,tells it all. I mean, there have been no repercussions for the lying and practically bankrupting the country in the process. Isn't that pretty dysfunctional, when the LEADER of a nation, can LIE act like the lowest Detroit hood criminal....GET AWAY WITH IT...and then write a book like nothing happened.
The simple fact that a Black man succeeded that goof, says a lot too. It's not only about the growing tolerance in White America, but it's also about the fact that White America lately produces a lotta goofs. Idiots, who can't tell their ##s from ####.
All I can say from following the Bush-Powell scenario, is that Bush acted like a criminal from the hood, and Powell like a WASP patrician of yesteryear.

I'm not gonna get into details of social dysfunction in countries with majority White populations....but please, do look at the stats....and start with the divorce rates and the numbers of kids born out of wedlock (to mostly white parents) in the UK, Sweden, France, Ukraine, Russia, Germany....etc. Look at the stats for alcoholism, drug usage, HIV infections....etc. Also check the stats for the numbers of single mothers living on social assistance in the UK and throughout Europe. Check out the stats for the abnormally low birthrates....etc.
We can basically agree that there are many dysfunctions that exist with African-Americans AND White Americans. I would argue that the communitarian culture in Asia can play a part. In the USA, it is highly individualistic to the point of selfishness. Some people don't have any shame because they don't see themselves as part of society, but rather, as prisoners of a society.
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