Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I feel like the two main complaints I hear about this is "We need trains to attract suburban use." and "This costs too much and I won't use it."
But the thing is that trains.. they cost a lot. BRT lines serve the same function as light rail at something like 5% of the initial cost (at least these were the numbers when SLC debated between adding another light rail line or a BRT line for a suburban corridor). The BRT line was put in within a couple years, usage exceeds expectations, and it will transition into a light rail over the next 20 years.
That is what Detroit needs to do. Add reliable BRT lines to show usage and train people to use transit for accessing Downtown and DTW. Then over time add belt-route lines and transition the rays to light rail. This is what we're proposing. Yet so many are against it, because they'd rather accomplish the same thing some other way. We all agree that Detroit needs a transit system, this is the best proposal many of you have probably ever seen. Unless you are an urban planner who has data to back up that this plan sucks, or you're a grumpy old man who simply hate the idea of public transit or kids on your lawn, - This. is. a. good. thing.
We all agree that Detroit needs a transit system, this is the best proposal many of you have probably ever seen. Unless you are an urban planner who has data to back up that this plan sucks, or you're a grumpy old man who simply hate the idea of public transit or kids on your lawn, - This. is. a. good. thing.
If Detroit needs a transit system they should build it. If you meant to say the region needs a transit system you should have said that instead of insulting people who don't buy in to your opinion.
I feel like the two main complaints I hear about this is "We need trains to attract suburban use." and "This costs too much and I won't use it."
But the thing is that trains.. they cost a lot. BRT lines serve the same function as light rail at something like 5% of the initial cost (at least these were the numbers when SLC debated between adding another light rail line or a BRT line for a suburban corridor). The BRT line was put in within a couple years, usage exceeds expectations, and it will transition into a light rail over the next 20 years.
That is what Detroit needs to do. Add reliable BRT lines to show usage and train people to use transit for accessing Downtown and DTW. Then over time add belt-route lines and transition the rays to light rail. This is what we're proposing. Yet so many are against it, because they'd rather accomplish the same thing some other way. We all agree that Detroit needs a transit system, this is the best proposal many of you have probably ever seen. Unless you are an urban planner who has data to back up that this plan sucks, or you're a grumpy old man who simply hate the idea of public transit or kids on your lawn, - This. is. a. good. thing.
Not wanting to pay $200/year for a half-baked transit plan that will accomplish very little doesn't mean someone is a "grumpy old man." I'm all for public projects and infrastructure when they are needed and make sense for the majority of the region/city. But asking people to kick in a significant amount of money for something that will benefit them little to not at all is not a good strategy.
I agree with THIS!
That said - RAPID TRANSIT SHOULD BE A GIVEN for a 5 million people metropolitan region. It is something that a large, cosmopolitan metro area should have - that really shouldn't be debatable. Not having rapid transit in this region for this long is something we should ashamed of.
If Detroit needs a transit system they should build it. If you meant to say the region needs a transit system you should have said that instead of insulting people who don't buy in to your opinion.
Yes, let's dispute semantics. My mistake. Metro Detroit needs a transit system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers
Not wanting to pay $200/year for a half-baked transit plan that will accomplish very little doesn't mean someone is a "grumpy old man." I'm all for public projects and infrastructure when they are needed and make sense for the majority of the region/city. But asking people to kick in a significant amount of money for something that will benefit them little to not at all is not a good strategy.
The plan is expected to cost people an average of $95 per year, or $7.92 a month. Roughly the cost of an extra value meal. $200 a year would imply you own a home with a market value of about $350,000, which maybe you do. I know there are some fairly well off posters on here, but I think it's safe to say if you can afford a $350,000 home, you can afford to contribute a bit more than average to the greater good of Metro Detroit. In many ways, I'm sure you already do.
I'm sorry if this is insulting and impolite of me, but I simply can't get behind the idea that a metro-wide public transit system isn't worth a monthly Spicy chicken with fries and a drink when the reality is that most people would in fact benefit from this system, whether they personally use it or not (we've hashed this out in prior pages). The Master Plan includes routes both along arterial roads into Detroit, as well as suburban routes. Please see the plans for Oakland County, Macomb County and Washtenaw County. This isn't some patchwork tax waste like some posters on here are trying to pretend it is, because they want their monthly McDouble with McKetchup, this is something that would change and improve Metro Detroit, for generations.
If you can present a better plan, I'm sure the RTA, county leaders, and community leaders would love to hear you out. Otherwise, don't be cheap. There are far worse things your tax dollars could go toward than a metro-wide system of public access mobility. But the reality is the region simply can't go another 5-10 years without real investment into public transportation. To do so would be an absolute joke and make Detroit even more of a national laughing stock.
Yes, let's dispute semantics. My mistake. Metro Detroit needs a transit system.
The plan is expected to cost people an average of $95 per year, or $7.92 a month. Roughly the cost of an extra value meal. $200 a year would imply you own a home with a market value of about $350,000, which maybe you do. I know there are some fairly well off posters on here, but I think it's safe to say if you can afford a $350,000 home, you can afford to contribute a bit more than average to the greater good of Metro Detroit. In many ways, I'm sure you already do.
I'm sorry if this is insulting and impolite of me, but I simply can't get behind the idea that a metro-wide public transit system isn't worth a monthly Spicy chicken with fries and a drink when the reality is that most people would in fact benefit from this system, whether they personally use it or not (we've hashed this out in prior pages). The Master Plan includes routes both along arterial roads into Detroit, as well as suburban routes. Please see the plans for Oakland County, Macomb County and Washtenaw County. This isn't some patchwork tax waste like some posters on here are trying to pretend it is, because they want their monthly McDouble with McKetchup, this is something that would change and improve Metro Detroit, for generations.
If you can present a better plan, I'm sure the RTA, county leaders, and community leaders would love to hear you out. Otherwise, don't be cheap. There are far worse things your tax dollars could go toward than a metro-wide system of public access mobility. But the reality is the region simply can't go another 5-10 years without real investment into public transportation. To do so would be an absolute joke and make Detroit even more of a national laughing stock.
It doesn't matter if it's $2 or $200. A bad plan is a bad plan. And telling people what they can and can't afford is not a good strategy for getting them to their side. Neither is "well, it's not a great plan, but let's spend billions in taxpayer money anyway because TRANSIT!" Neither of those are logical arguments.
I've shared my ideas for a route along Grand River or 96. That would certainly go a long way in getting me (and many others on the west side) on board. But in absence of that, I'm not voting myself a major tax increase because of naive idealism. Sorry.
I agree with THIS! Combine SMART and DDOT and run the consolidated bus system so that its becomes remarkably reliable, on-time, clean, and safe - for a good 2 years or so. That way you develop a track record of successful and more-than-competent operation and maintenance of a transit system - then come to the voters with a plan for rapid transit.
That said - RAPID TRANSIT SHOULD BE A GIVEN for a 5 million people metropolitan region. It is something that a large, cosmopolitan metro area should have - that really shouldn't be debatable. Not having rapid transit in this region for this long is something we should ashamed of.
Well I tell you one thing. It's absolutely embarrassing. If I talk to family or friends in other cities like Chicago, STL, ATL, Ohio, ect and they get on the topic of transit... the only thing I can do is keep my mouth closed or change the subject and hope to God they don't ask me about Detroit's transit. What's funny is most people who visited various parts of Detroit automatically assumes we have decent rail because of how big the city is.
Quote:
Exactly! Unless gas prices are high, people will not use public transit. The only way to do that is to tax it more, and the politicians won't do that.
Then why across America are more people using transit and less people using cars?
If I talk to family or friends in other cities like Chicago, STL, ATL, Ohio, ect and they get on the topic of transit... the only thing I can do is keep my mouth closed or change the subject and hope to God they don't ask me about Detroit's transit.
Just as a point of reference....
Every Mass Transit system in America that receives any Federal funding has to report monthly ridership to the Federal Government.
These are generally kept track of as "unlinked trips". That means transfers are not counted. So if I take a commuter train to a station then take a bus and get a transfer to another bus that goes down as 3 trips in the data. If I take a bus to work then take a bus home after work that counts as 2 trips in the data.
With that in mind here are the per-capita yearly trips for the cities you mentioned
Read this as Chicago averages 74.7 mass transit trips per year per resident.
But keep in mind one person who takes a bus to and from work 5 days a week for 50 weeks racks up 500 counted trips.
It doesn't matter if it's $2 or $200. A bad plan is a bad plan. And telling people what they can and can't afford is not a good strategy for getting them to their side. Neither is "well, it's not a great plan, but let's spend billions in taxpayer money anyway because TRANSIT!" Neither of those are logical arguments.
I've shared my ideas for a route along Grand River or 96. That would certainly go a long way in getting me (and many others on the west side) on board. But in absence of that, I'm not voting myself a major tax increase because of naive idealism. Sorry.
And I'm not saying it's a bad plan. I think it's a great plan. I'm only acknowledging the concerns that others are expressing in which they believe it is a bad plan and requesting that they provide alternative plans, so thank you for expressing your ideas on what a good plan is.
The master plan(please click that) includes a cross-county connector route on Grand River, going all the way out through Farmington and Novi and terminating in Wixom. A spur off this line goes down Plymouth, through Livonia, and into Plymouth. It also includes a BRT down Michigan to the airport with rail to Ann Arbor. These essentially captures the exact geographic area in which a line down I96 would, except better because they you don't have to install costly freeway transit overpasses every few miles for stations. In addition, a line down 12 Mile from Novi to St. Clair Shores would exist for those who both live and work in the suburbs, such as myself.
So now that you know those are part of this, do you plan on reevaluating your position, or is your mind already made up?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
