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Old 12-01-2016, 08:01 AM
 
1,648 posts, read 2,743,255 times
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We live in 2016 not in 1970. We can't change that people moved in or out of a city.

We can only change today - which determines our future. Stop living in the blast and accepting your fate as a result of old behavior. You too - can change.

Here's a good example - let's say 50% of a census track can't read. How do you teach them to read? Do you throw $4 million and X new schools to get them to read? That's one option. Liberals really like it but that literacy rate never moves.

But wouldn't a better option be for the local neighborhoods (e.g. churches) to institute that every night everyone on the block who can't read is forced to attend church from 7-8pm and you go around an read chapters from the Bible out loud. That would force everyone to learn to read in less than a year and be free. Many times solutions are actually pretty simple, and within our control - we just don't want to do them because 1) we may say that's brainwashing or whatever the excuse du jour is. Then once you read - you can educate yourself. How do you think the Amish learn to read? Or Mennonite? The problems are actually easily solvable (e.g. don't have kids until you're married, read an hour ever night). Within a few years entire tracts could change if we made some social changes in our behavior. Economic behavior is often linked to social behavior.
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:06 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belleislerunner View Post
If it is exposing the racial discrepancies - what are you/we as a city doing to recruit upwardly mobile/high income producing black residents. Think of how Atlanta lured Detroit's educated and well paying black children - we need to reverse that.

It's not like the residents at Conner and Harper are suddenly going to get white collar jobs regardlesss of whoever is mayor. Each individual determines their future - via technical skills (e.g. asbestos removal, roofing, HVAC, flooring) or office level jobs. Blaming that lack of career upward mobility on anyone other than the individual only actually helps keep that person down while others advance and outpace them.
Let me draw an analogy with exercise. Often times people will ask "what exercise can I do to make my stomach smaller". Well, you cannot spot reduce. You can only solve that problem by addressing the whole body with exercise and diet. In other words, you are not going to be able to provide a solution through localized exercise to the area you are trying to reduce.

The problem that manifest in Detroit, racially, and in regards to inequality, are really NATIONAL problems that require a NATIONAL change to bring about the desired condition. The Detroit area cannot do isolated exercises to solve this condition. Its easy to say that its up to the individual.....but not every individual is in the same position in life. There are a lot of different shoes that people find themselves in and until you walk in them you really do not know the many obstacles they face.
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
... I say Southfield is not very nice, because it is not very nice. I had no idea until reading the post above the residents were mostly black, if I had thought about it, I would have assumed otherwise. Southfield is not nice because it has no center, it is poorly planned/laid out, it is run down, dirty and has nothing to draw people that I can see. It is not awful, but it is not nice either, it just has no appeal, while there are other nearby communities that have substantial appeal. They have a center, or a really nice park/mall, or other ameneties. great schools, or amazing historic architecture, or just a really good lay out.plan, or they are rural or homey small townish, or they have an interesting or exciting downtown. . . Southfield has none of these. I do not think anyone sighs and says "Oh I wish I could live in Southfield" It has nothing to do with who lives there. Southfield has always been a place of very little appeal. ...
I believe that despite my previous post speaking well on Southfield, that those descriptions you used are becoming accurate; however, they could just as easily be applied to Livonia, Sterling Heights, or half the middle class sprawl-suburbs in America. Those towns are objectively boring with no city center and no significant updates or improvements in decades. And that's exactly what a mid-20th century suburb was. The thing which will exacerbate this problem for Southfield would be the schools, which are admittedly pretty bad, but beyond that I don't see how Southfield is any worse than half of the other suburbs in the nation. This is why people are moving farther out to exurbs with planned city centers (South Lyon, Romeo, Rochester) or further in - to areas with walkable cores (Midtown, Royal Oak, Ferndale).

I know some disagree with me here, but I predict that over the next 20-30 years, the mid-century sprawl-style suburb suffers a fate similar to what inner-cities saw in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. This won't be isolated to Metro Detroit, but will occur nationwide. I know Salt Lake City was already seeing this in some of its aging sprawlburbs. Nationally, regions that are/were planned as entirely car-centric will decline without appropriate investment into transit or downtown development.
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:22 AM
 
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Yes but when you don't accept individual responsibility for your actions/position in life - you blame it on a "National" problem or a National change. A national solution is nothing more than a group of individuals. Some nations can be 500K. Some nations can be 250 million. It's like church. A church is not a building. It's a group of people who come together and share core values. A group of individuals. Thus you are the church.

You can go your entire life blaming it on national issues/national changes, past behavior/past practices - and that's your right. I'm saying nothing in your life will change - other than you becoming more depressed, more disgruntled and more angry.

Those who accept personal responsibility will better themselves and pass the group of "victims".

One thing worth noting is people who accept personal responsibility - see the "victims" as choosing their own fate - so dialogue between two groups is rare because you can't convince someone who goes to the gym each day for an hour to maintain shape that the reason he's that way and the reason the "fat person with a bad thyroid" is that way can't be changed. The gym person knows the fat person can and is just rationalizing his laziness. You don't convince the gym person to just "become fat" via dialogue. You do that with holiday treats =)
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:37 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
I don't disagree with any of this. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone out of conjecture declares that Detroit's collapse was due to the fortunes of the auto industry and not race.




How do we fix the deep racial socioeconomic schisms without cooperation and understanding from both sides. I am not suggesting that you don't want to cooperate, but as your frustration and resentment comes through in your writing, I don't see anywhere where you suggest that both communities play a part in fixing it. It comes across as white people have to fix it and black people will judge the results. Things will never improve if that is truly the sentiment.





I have often heard that the quiet and subtle racism in Michigan(and a lot of the Midwest) is actually worse than current conditions in the south. Most people aren't overtly racist, but they do little if anything to understand the other point of view.





Believe it or not, even though I stand up to you sometimes and am a contrarian pain in the ass, I do absorb the things you say. The gist of which I believe to be that here we are white people celebrating the resurgence of our cities. All of these pretty buildings and coffee shops with hipsters are going in, and 20 years ago most of us felt like our cities would never catch up. But as we sit in our happy little bubble watching all of this market rate housing going up, no one is addressing or really trying to recognize the root cause that created these conditions to begin with. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but when you go on these rants after someone is excited, what I interpret is a frustration at greater blindness/indifference to a bigger issue.


I admit that I am happy to see these cities that are iconic to my existence advance. I also admit that I get concerned when I see continued reports about conditions not improving for minorities, or that they do not feel a part of it. I know it's not something I can truly understand from my own bubble. You by your own intellect acknowledge that overall conditions can't improve without these kinds of investments. But again you are able to vent your frustrations, you acknowledge the conditioning of your resentment, but you never acknowledge that you too must also rise above bias's with the rest of us if we were to ever truly get past it. I don't want to be a part of the problem. I like you was born into a circumstance, this is something I can't control any more than you could. Why do I feel like you're telling me is it my job alone to fix it?
As hard as it may be to accept.....my post are an intellectual exercise to demonstrate CAUSE AND EFFECT and are not emotionally driven rants. I am not gritting my teeth and my blood pressure is not rising as I post comments. Every action produces a reaction and I am going to always note the actions that have created the reaction known as the present....when it comes to matters involving African Americans. In fact, I believe I am much less emotional than those who react to my post.....often....and if I am not speaking untruths......people need to question why THEY are becoming so emotional.

It seems to me that people want me to discuss the issue evenly.....like both sides were equally the problem. However, that is not true. Hence, I am not going to discuss the issue as if blacks and white were equally complicit in these problems or need to be in the solution. History clearly shows where the problem was rooted. All blacks have done historically is to seek freedom and equality.....and now we bear the legacy/scars of being denied such for centuries....and this is what makes OUR BEHAVIOR, ATTITUDES and CONDITIONS DIFFERENT. It is the scars and legacy which continue to foment resentment or given rationalization for prejudice against blacks currently. Every action creates a reaction and the reaction/consequence of that history in blacks is the rationalization given for saying that black behavior is part of the problem.

My solution is that black people need to uplift and embrace other black people. We need to reaffirm ourselves and break free of the historical brainwashing that has done this to our mindsets.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpUyB2xgTM
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:59 AM
 
4,153 posts, read 3,823,943 times
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Moved these posts into a new thread so as not to hijack the subject of the other thread.
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Old 12-01-2016, 09:55 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belleislerunner View Post
Yes but when you don't accept individual responsibility for your actions/position in life - you blame it on a "National" problem or a National change. A national solution is nothing more than a group of individuals. Some nations can be 500K. Some nations can be 250 million. It's like church. A church is not a building. It's a group of people who come together and share core values. A group of individuals. Thus you are the church.

You can go your entire life blaming it on national issues/national changes, past behavior/past practices - and that's your right. I'm saying nothing in your life will change - other than you becoming more depressed, more disgruntled and more angry.

Those who accept personal responsibility will better themselves and pass the group of "victims".

One thing worth noting is people who accept personal responsibility - see the "victims" as choosing their own fate - so dialogue between two groups is rare because you can't convince someone who goes to the gym each day for an hour to maintain shape that the reason he's that way and the reason the "fat person with a bad thyroid" is that way can't be changed. The gym person knows the fat person can and is just rationalizing his laziness. You don't convince the gym person to just "become fat" via dialogue. You do that with holiday treats =)
There is a flip side to that. If you don't place blame externally, when there has been a history of external things to blame, you risk creating an inferiority complex that leads to you not trying as hard. For example, say that you are a runner who competes. Say that you keep ending up behind most other runners in the competition. Say also that there has been cheating on behalf of your competition. If you ignore the impact of the cheating means that you place the blame for your failures on yourself. What happens when you have prolonged failures? You will lose confidence. Failure foments the lack of confidence and hence....more failure. Success promotes confidence....and hence....more success. What has happened in America is that society fomented black failure and hence.....a lack of confidence. Even if society completely stopped fomenting black failure, the reverberating racial cultural loss of confidence will produce the same impact. The video I posted in my previous thread is evidence of this effect.
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Old 12-01-2016, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,281 posts, read 1,072,078 times
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I disagree with the above. If you keep placing the blame externally, you give up too easily and set yourself up for failure. It's very hard for people to develop good coping skills! Very hard to mature and admit that we need primarily to rely on ourselves for success and own up to bad decisions.
That video has been posted before, and I'm amazed that anyone would accept it as proof of anything. Who are those kids looking at? What are their expressions and gestures? Children can be very easily manipulated, and they often look up (in the video) as if for guidance and reassurance.
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Old 12-01-2016, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,929 times
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This entire thread reeks of a complete lack of empathy. Now there is absolutely some truth to the whole, "You must be responsible for yourself." thing, but there's also some truth to the idea that sometimes society doesn't allow you to because of preexisting biases.

Humans of New York has been doing a special the last few weeks about "Humans of Macomb County" - and it has been incredible. My favorite one was a couple days ago, a man shared this story:
“I grew up in the suburbs. I used to think that I could write a prescription for a poor man: ‘Get a job, save your money, pull yourself up by the bootstraps.’ I don’t believe that anymore. I was ignorant to the experiences of poor people. I’d invite anyone to come and meet the people who live in this neighborhood. Right now we are surrounded by working poor people. These are the people who sell your tools at Sears, and fix your roofs, and take care of your parents, and mow your lawns, and serve your meals. They’re not getting a living wage. There’s no money left to save. There’s nothing left if they get sick. Nothing left if their car breaks down. And God forbid they make a mistake, because there’s nothing left to pay fines or fees. When you’re down here, the system will continue to kick dirt in your face. You can’t pull yourself up when there’s nothing to grab onto. We aren’t paying our brothers and sisters enough to live. We want them to serve us, but we aren’t serving them.”
His line of, "I was ignorant to the experiences of poor people." really struck a chord with me. Replace 'poor' with a multitude of other words and there you have society. I have no idea what it's like to grow up as someone else. How would it be reasonable to expect them to have made the same decisions I did?

In case anyone was curious, it was a white guy who stated that, but I think that goes to show that poverty affects everyone equally. Being poor is hard. Being poor is having the entire deck of cards stacked against you from birth. 39% of Detroit lives in poverty - 57% of those under 18. I'm not sure what my point is here, but as you're reading the conflicting perspective, try putting yourself in a lifetime of another's shoes. Not that select circumstance using your body of knowledge and your connections, but an entire lifetime lived by that person. It really makes you look at things differently. Once we as a society begin doing this, we begin to tackle one of the biggest issues facing society today: Tribalism.

City vs. Country
Democrat vs. Republican
Black vs. White
Collectivism vs. Individualism

And I'm addressing this at everyone, not just the straight, white, republican, male from the suburb/country. I get it, nobody ever puts themselves in his shoes either! My point is simply that "the other side" isn't "wrong" they simply have an entire different set of experiences to draw on. Nobody acknowledges that.
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Old 12-01-2016, 12:26 PM
 
1,648 posts, read 2,743,255 times
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We aknowledge it. Read the book "Nickled and Dimed" - it's a journalist who went around the country for a year doing minimum wage jobs and the struggle about how to "get ahead."

No one is disputing there are poor people. Who work very hard.

What we were discussing is that the ability to rise above that is still very much in each individual's control. Without that ability, at the most granular level, would be a person without hope. And without hope - what does one have to live for?

The fear is that someone would misdirect that hope from looking within and making things better to having to accept that I was just born in rags and ruin and thus my life is destined to be the same because of what someone 428 years ago did.
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