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Old 12-01-2016, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,285 posts, read 1,077,960 times
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OP, what were you looking for, in starting this thread? What was your motivation? I'm really curious.
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Old 12-01-2016, 12:54 PM
 
12,564 posts, read 7,624,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkeith View Post
I disagree with the above. If you keep placing the blame externally, you give up too easily and set yourself up for failure. It's very hard for people to develop good coping skills! Very hard to mature and admit that we need primarily to rely on ourselves for success and own up to bad decisions.
That video has been posted before, and I'm amazed that anyone would accept it as proof of anything. Who are those kids looking at? What are their expressions and gestures? Children can be very easily manipulated, and they often look up (in the video) as if for guidance and reassurance.
Incredulous as it may seem.....you are more likely to get honest answers from children about race, than you will from adults. At that age most kids do not know what is socially acceptable or unacceptable in regards to comments about race. Furthermore, I have witnessed this more times in my extended family than I care to mention. I have black relatives who, for a long time, would not go to a black doctor. This phenomenon being reflected is REAL, even if the study or experiment is not scientific or does not follow scientific methodology.....the results reflect reality....given a margin of error. In fact, I even witnessed this in my own children.....and I had to carefully deprogram them by affirming their blackness as something positive. I mean....black people do not kill each other at rates much higher than the general population as a result of a healthy self image.....because its not genetic. You do not understand much at all about the black community if you do not understand the history between light and dark skinned blacks....good hair bad hair and why this saying existed "If a white and black man were selling ice....blacks would buy the ice from the white man because he thinks it colder". https://books.google.com/books?id=QY...%20ice&f=false

You see....the problem I have is that people like you have STRONG opinions....but a weak base supporting your opinion. You really do not understand black people and their history enough to know if something is true or not........yet.....that does not keep you from having strong opinions written in stone. You are a microcosm of many of those who dissent against truth.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-01-2016 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,937,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkeith View Post
OP, what were you looking for, in starting this thread? What was your motivation? I'm really curious.
I actually started a thread about some awesome stuff that happened for the City of Detroit this week, and from there somehow this beast about the Mayor Duggan's whiteness allegedly giving white people the confidence to reinvest in the city spawned out of it (within two posts), so Mijo split it off so as not to completely hijack the original thread

But this wasn't originally intended to be its own thread; however, I believe it has spawned some really good discussion that should be continued, so I'm happy the moderator split the two rather than deleting the posts. (Thanks, solid moderating - if I may say so myself!)
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:11 PM
 
2,477 posts, read 1,770,596 times
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I appreciate this thread. I have nothing to contribute at this point but this type of discussion needs to come out. I am not black or white, I can't understand either side POV. I am glad Detroit is coming around but this type of discussion is important for everyone to move forward
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,776 posts, read 65,692,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
I believe that despite my previous post speaking well on Southfield, that those descriptions you used are becoming accurate; however, they could just as easily be applied to Livonia, Sterling Heights, or half the middle class sprawl-suburbs in America. Those towns are objectively boring with no city center and no significant updates or improvements in decades. And that's exactly what a mid-20th century suburb was. The thing which will exacerbate this problem for Southfield would be the schools, which are admittedly pretty bad, but beyond that I don't see how Southfield is any worse than half of the other suburbs in the nation. This is why people are moving farther out to exurbs with planned city centers (South Lyon, Romeo, Rochester) or further in - to areas with walkable cores (Midtown, Royal Oak, Ferndale).

I know some disagree with me here, but I predict that over the next 20-30 years, the mid-century sprawl-style suburb suffers a fate similar to what inner-cities saw in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. This won't be isolated to Metro Detroit, but will occur nationwide. I know Salt Lake City was already seeing this in some of its aging sprawlburbs. Nationally, regions that are/were planned as entirely car-centric will decline without appropriate investment into transit or downtown development.
Yes, and I would say that Livonia is almost as not nice as Southfield (almost). Livonia is not as run down and dirty seeming. I would expect Livonia to have a lower crime rate due to its general location in a less densely populated area, but that is really a wag. The Northwestern part of Livonia is much nicer than anything I am aware of in Southfield; and Livonia does have better schools and a little better planning (i would not call it good planning, but it has planning where Southfield does not appear to have any). I would certainly put Westland and Southfield in the same basket however.

I do not know much about Sterling Heights other than my brother worked there for a while. If i have ever been there, it was not memorable.

I do not think those suburbs will fall into the same decline as the Detroit Neighborhoods. I think they will serve as starter locations for young and less well off families, who will then move to more appealing suburbs or into the City after five or so years. Some will stay, but they will never be destination communities.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,776 posts, read 65,692,477 times
Reputation: 32973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Incredulous as it may seem.....you are more likely to get honest answers from children about race, than you will from adults. At that age most kids do not know what is socially acceptable or unacceptable in regards to comments about race.
I will ask my daughter. She is in a psychology PhD program and her area of study/expertise is the development of racism and bullying in children. Sometimes her information surprises me.

For example children of racially prejudiced parents are not more likely to have the same racial prejudice than children of other parents. They are more likely to have close minded attitudes about other things, but not more likely to have the same prejudice as their parents (thus, for example, kids of parents prejudiced against blacks may be more likely to be prejudiced against homosexuals or some other group, but not more likely than other kids to have prejudice against blacks. I mention this not because it is related, but because it is counterintiutive but has been confirmed by multiple studies. In other words, sometimes our concepts about children and prejudice are incorrect. I do know all those memes on facebook saying children do not know prejudice - it has to be learned, are false. Prejudice is naturally inherent in human beings and must be recognized and fought.

Anyway I will ask her about this when I remember. I am sure she will know the answer if there is one.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,285 posts, read 1,077,960 times
Reputation: 1574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Incredulous as it may seem.....you are more likely to get honest answers from children about race, than you will from adults. At that age most kids do not know what is socially acceptable or unacceptable in regards to comments about race. Furthermore, I have witnessed this more times in my extended family than I care to mention. I have black relatives who, for a long time, would not go to a black doctor. This phenomenon being reflected is REAL, even if the study or experiment is not scientific or does not follow scientific methodology.....the results reflect reality....given a margin of error. In fact, I even witnessed this in my own children.....and I had to carefully deprogram them by affirming their blackness as something positive. I mean....black people do not kill each other at rates much higher than the general population as a result of a healthy self image.....because its not genetic. You do not understand much at all about the black community if you do not understand the history between light and dark skinned blacks....good hair bad hair and why this saying existed "If a white and black man were selling ice....blacks would buy the ice from the white man because he thinks it colder". https://books.google.com/books?id=QY...%20ice&f=false

You see....the problem I have is that people like you have STRONG opinions....but a weak base supporting your opinion. You really do not understand black people and their history enough to know if something is true or not........yet.....that does not keep you from having strong opinions written in stone. You are a microcosm of many of those who dissent against truth.
You see?


Please tell me who "people like me" are?
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:52 PM
 
12,564 posts, read 7,624,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belleislerunner View Post
We aknowledge it. Read the book "Nickled and Dimed" - it's a journalist who went around the country for a year doing minimum wage jobs and the struggle about how to "get ahead."

No one is disputing there are poor people. Who work very hard.

What we were discussing is that the ability to rise above that is still very much in each individual's control. Without that ability, at the most granular level, would be a person without hope. And without hope - what does one have to live for?

The fear is that someone would misdirect that hope from looking within and making things better to having to accept that I was just born in rags and ruin and thus my life is destined to be the same because of what someone 428 years ago did.
I think we often hear stories about how people survived or even managed to thrive against great odds. We too often here because one person made it out of a bad circumstance the fallacy that such means that all could or should have made it out of that circumstance. In fact, successful blacks are often used to caste spersion upon blacks who are not considered successful and to discredit mythical "racism" as being a true impediment explaining blacks lack of progress relative to others (whites).

Here is the problem. One, every situation is unique. Two, every individual is unique. Hence, the permutations created from the uniqueness of every circumstance and the uniqueness of every individual is such that no situation is the same. Consequently, planes can fly into the Twin Towers in New York, killing hundreds of people who were in the building......yet, many people who were in the buildings manage to survive. How can both be true? Is it not all or nothing? Should it be that everyone should have died or everyone should have lived.....mutually exclusive? That is what people expect of the claim of racism. If racism was really such a bad thing, no one should have been able to rise above it and hence the fact that many blacks rose above it means that racism was really not the problem.

The reason that some people survived the general circumstance of of the Twin Towers, while being inside, is due to variation in specific circumstance. The reason that some black people prospered despite racism while others were held down is due to variation is specific circumstances despite sharing the general same circumstance. Also, individual variation means that there are always people who are exceptional and the exceptional will always tend to get further than the average and below average. Yet, if one black person makes it.......he or she is used to say that others could have or should have if not for the lack of personal responsibility.

Here is my thing. You are correct in what you say.......but you cannot use a cookie cutter approach because your methodology or way of thinking does not work for all people.....nor does mine. However, you have to look at the individual and calibrate things in a way that meets the root cause of their problems.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:57 PM
 
12,564 posts, read 7,624,034 times
Reputation: 4774
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkeith View Post
You see?


Please tell me who "people like me" are?
I thought it was pretty clear. "People like you" refers to people who demonstrate strong opinions but who are obviously weak on facts. In other words, the phenomenon that you rejected as being staged or manipulated was demonstrating a known and true historical phenomenon. Why a person would think an experiment that corroborates a KNOWN historical phenomenon should be discredited shows a lack of knowledge on the subject and a lack of knowledge should weaken the opinion formed with the lack of knowledge as the basis.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:09 PM
 
12,564 posts, read 7,624,034 times
Reputation: 4774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I will ask my daughter. She is in a psychology PhD program and her area of study/expertise is the development of racism and bullying in children. Sometimes her information surprises me.

For example children of racially prejudiced parents are not more likely to have the same racial prejudice than children of other parents. They are more likely to have close minded attitudes about other things, but not more likely to have the same prejudice as their parents (thus, for example, kids of parents prejudiced against blacks may be more likely to be prejudiced against homosexuals or some other group, but not more likely than other kids to have prejudice against blacks. I mention this not because it is related, but because it is counterintiutive but has been confirmed by multiple studies. In other words, sometimes our concepts about children and prejudice are incorrect. I do know all those memes on facebook saying children do not know prejudice - it has to be learned, are false. Prejudice is naturally inherent in human beings and must be recognized and fought.

Anyway I will ask her about this when I remember. I am sure she will know the answer if there is one.
I think children pick up a lot of things from TV or other sources. Culture is injected through media more than ever and children's fears and prejudices may come from media exposure, images in text books, cartoons, etc etc.

I do not think that is counter intuitive because society conditioned their children that the racial prejudice was wrong. For example, if you grew up with racist parents in the 70's, you realize that those attitudes are wrong....and hence you seek not to replicate them. However, you just create a new target for your prejudice....one that does not come with as much social stigma.

In other words.......the study does not say that racist parents has less racist children than nor racist parents. In other words, racist parents teach their children racism. However, as children age they may come to realize that the prejudice of their parents was wrong, yet, subconsciously they are still programed to be racist and thus consciously they repress the direct target of their parents racism in order to not seem racist.....but not repressing other "out groups". Rarely does a person who holds racist ideal only have racism or prejudice against a single group.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-01-2016 at 02:50 PM..
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