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Old 12-01-2016, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,289 posts, read 1,079,160 times
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That's OK. mjlo. You already made my point in your first comment, and very well.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:13 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 24,815,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I would bet a majority of the new residents of Downtown and midtown (especially mid-town) do not know who the mayor is. Most people do not care.

When we were looking for a community to call home, we considered 200 cities. Narrowed it down to about 15, then to 5 and finally 1. Until we got down to the final 5 we had no idea who the mayor was of any of the communities. We wrote to the mayors of the 5 finalist communities and asked them to tell us about their community. Still we had no idea what their racial or cultural heritage was, nor did we care. Who the mayor was had no weight in our design at all. We wrote to them only in the home of getting more information about the community. Detroit was originally in the final 15. We knew about Kwame (although it was before he was fully exposed), but that never factored into our decision making process. Our interests were location, schools, opportunities for the kids to play, housing stock/architecture, amenities, community, safety, access. Who is the mayor never came into consideration. Why would I care who the mayor is? Whomever it is, they will not be there for much of the time that I will be there. Mayors come and go. Choosing a place to live based on who the mayor is this year is plain silly. I really do not think anyone is that stupid. What the mayor and council are doing could be significant. If your trash will not get picked up or the police will not come, that may factor in, but the name, gender or race of the mayor? that may change in a month.

Not long ago, I asked my siblings who the mayor of their respective communities was. None of them knew. None of them cared.

The only exceptions I can image would be a mayor who is widely known for corruption (like Kwame was, or Coleman Young before him), a really famous person (like Bing), or someone really unusual (like the Cat that is mayor of some Alaska town, or the high school kid). Because of the media attention, any of them could be a draw or a detriment, but that is only because of media attention. No one cares what their racial or cultural background is. Even though it would be neat to live in a place with an odd mayor like a cat or a kid, or a blue avatar guy, it is only a very temporary thing. Certainly not the basis for choosing a long term home.

I say Southfield is not very nice, because it is not very nice. I had no idea until reading the post above the residents were mostly black, if I had thought about it, I would have assumed otherwise. Southfield is not nice because it has no center, it is poorly planned/laid out, it is run down, dirty and has nothing to draw people that I can see. It is not awful, but it is not nice either, it just has no appeal, while there are other nearby communities that have substantial appeal. They have a center, or a really nice park/mall, or other ameneties. great schools, or amazing historic architecture, or just a really good lay out.plan, or they are rural or homey small townish, or they have an interesting or exciting downtown. . . Southfield has none of these. I do not think anyone sighs and says "Oh I wish I could live in Southfield" It has nothing to do with who lives there. Southfield has always been a place of very little appeal.

However on the original topic. Detroit has established itself as a real city now (to me). It is not just occasional events that bring people out. Every night when I leave work, there are people out and about, music playing, things to do. Even on weekdays and even in bad weather. This was not true even one year ago. The past year, it has really changed some more. The city has come back to life.

And I would say that is wrong. Everyone I talk to in MidTown know it is the "white guy" Duggan who runs the city, finally.

MidTown has come back to life. The area between I-94 on the North, to I-75 on the south and I-375 on the east and the Lodge on the West is ALIVE. And parts of Downtown is doing better.

The other 99.9% of Detroit is just as dead as it ever was..
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Old 12-01-2016, 09:02 PM
 
142 posts, read 118,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
I believe that despite my previous post speaking well on Southfield, that those descriptions you used are becoming accurate; however, they could just as easily be applied to Livonia, Sterling Heights, or half the middle class sprawl-suburbs in America. Those towns are objectively boring with no city center and no significant updates or improvements in decades. And that's exactly what a mid-20th century suburb was. The thing which will exacerbate this problem for Southfield would be the schools, which are admittedly pretty bad, but beyond that I don't see how Southfield is any worse than half of the other suburbs in the nation. This is why people are moving farther out to exurbs with planned city centers (South Lyon, Romeo, Rochester) or further in - to areas with walkable cores (Midtown, Royal Oak, Ferndale).

I know some disagree with me here, but I predict that over the next 20-30 years, the mid-century sprawl-style suburb suffers a fate similar to what inner-cities saw in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. This won't be isolated to Metro Detroit, but will occur nationwide. I know Salt Lake City was already seeing this in some of its aging sprawlburbs. Nationally, regions that are/were planned as entirely car-centric will decline without appropriate investment into transit or downtown development.
Southfield and Sterling heights are very different, but ultimately had the same end result. Neither city is as nice as it used to be.

Southfield is decent as far as suburbia goes. Lots of green space, many houses have huge lots, there are a lot of well-preserved old neighborhoods, by which I mean, the city has not allowed developers to demolish houses, split single lots into 3, and destroy the density and character. Civic Center Rd has many high density apartment buildings, but the original treed, wooded setting remains. I think thats good planning.
However, Southfield had a building boom during the 1960s-1970s that resulted in some fairly plain subdivisions and large scale buildings like apartments, hotels, and big commercial complexes.Those often do not age well. Take a look at those apartments on Franklin, right off 696. Tell me that you honestly think those look nice now. Many of the houses need paint jobs, new windows, garage doors, roofs, landscaping. Many of the commercial buildings badly need some modernization.
Sterling Heights is a little different. They plowed over all the residential properties on main roads and crammed as many commercial and industrial buildings as they could. No long-term plans, just whatever tax-generating building someone wanted to build. Absolutely careless city planning and generic, cookie-cutter subdivisions across the whole city. End result: poorly aging commercial businesses and houses that are looking dirty or outdated.
Both cities relied on too many poor developments that were supposed to represent "the city of the future". That future was 40 years ago and the buildings/houses have not been updated since.
Bloomfield Township has been planned and zoned as carefully as Southfield in terms of density and preserving trees, but their buildings and houses have been better maintained.They also didnt become dependant on high-rise buildings and huge office centers that require excessive maintenance and are always difficult to keep fully occuppied
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Old 12-01-2016, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Here.
14,574 posts, read 13,318,476 times
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Detroit doesn't have a white mayor because the white Detroiters voted for him; it is because the black Detroiters voted for him...instead of the black candidate.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:30 AM
 
12,598 posts, read 7,629,699 times
Reputation: 4787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Detroit doesn't have a white mayor because the white Detroiters voted for him; it is because the black Detroiters voted for him...instead of the black candidate.
That is true. However, how would black Detroiters feel had it not been for the constant mantra from the larger outside demographic that Detroit leadership incompetence and corruption was the leading cause of Detroit decline? If you repeat something enough or if you hear something enough.....you start to believe it. It gets embedded in your subconscious. People then start to think that the suggested correlation actually might be the causation for the cities problem.

In my opinion, black Detroiters just cried "Uncle". We made the mistake of confusing political power with actual "Power", when the true power is ECONOMIC POWER. Political power is pliable to economic power. While blacks gained political power in Detroit, the economic power (corporations and banks) were solidly white and uncomfortable with black political power which has many historical grievances it wants to reconcile for the people that they represent. Hence, we gave up the fantasy that black political power would bring about a better tomorrow for black people. Thus, after bankruptcy, an Emergency Manager and the city reaching a new low, black Detroiters just really were disillusioned and having a "black" mayor was simply not as important as it used to be.

Here is a little story. My brother-in-law was working on salvaging the building that would become part of Ford Field. He owns his own company and was there to collect and sell the scrap parts (I don't really know his business model that well). Anyway, he could not get much traction doing business with white clientele or buyers, as he explained to me, presenting himself as the "owner" of the company the buyers were doing business with. Thus, he changed his strategy and started presenting himself to them as a worker for the company. He told me that he would always say, during their negotiations and meetings, that he had to check back with his "boss". Once he did that, he sales started taking off.

I have a friend who lives in another state who started his own business. Again, he had trouble getting traction and convincing white potential clients to use his service, with him as the face of the business. Again, he changed his strategy and hired a white front person who presented themselves as the owner of the company while my friend in the background as an employee. His business took off after that. Then there is this story from the internet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApV0hszT-yo

My point is that there is plenty of evidence that whites are more comfortable doing business with whites than they are doing business with blacks, as general rule. Economics is a system based upon CONFIDENCE. That is why consumer confidence (now called sentiment) is an economic indicator tracked by the University of Michigan and is a bell weather for the direction of the economy. The evidence shows that whites are not confident in black leadership......at least not as much as they are confident in white leadership. This is why I think the Duggan becoming mayor was orchestrated (or helped along by corporate forces) as one of the key things that needed to take place for Detroit to comeback. They needed a white Mayor to boost white confidence.....so I am sure a lot of money from the corporate community went into Duggan's campaign.

I mean.....think about it. What is the perception of Africa and its leaders? Why does not the West have the type of Direct Foreign Investment in Africa they way it does in Asia and Latin America? They reason given will be incompetence and corruption and instability. However, I can name off more than a handful of African nations that have been stable, no coups for decades. Despite that, America would rather do direct foreign investment in a communist nation CHINA. Direct Foreign Investment has been the key to growth in the developing world. Africa, on the other hand, is largely ignored for such investment (unless its natural resources like oil) and are given conditional loans by our government with compound interest.

So when I look at the big picture......things are clear. This country has come a long way in regards to laws and consciousness concerning race. However, it's obvious that it is much harder to clear the programming in the subconscious. Subconsciously America is still that nation of people that sees black people as inferior. Am I mad or angry about it? Nope. That is just the way things are. Life is not fair and it will never be fair and one of the realities we have to deal with as African Americans in America is that others see us as less than them. For me, I just to keep the truth known so that black people will stop buying into....as demonstrated in the video with the kids and dolls.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-02-2016 at 06:39 AM..
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Here.
14,574 posts, read 13,318,476 times
Reputation: 17064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
That is true. However, how would black Detroiters feel had it not been for the constant mantra from the larger outside demographic that Detroit leadership incompetence and corruption was the leading cause of Detroit decline? If you repeat something enough or if you hear something enough.....you start to believe it. It gets embedded in your subconscious. People then start to think that the suggested correlation actually might be the causation for the cities problem.

In my opinion, black Detroiters just cried "Uncle". We made the mistake of confusing political power with actual "Power", when the true power is ECONOMIC POWER. Political power is pliable to economic power. While blacks gained political power in Detroit, the economic power (corporations and banks) were solidly white and uncomfortable with black political power which has many historical grievances it wants to reconcile for the people that they represent. Hence, we gave up the fantasy that black political power would bring about a better tomorrow for black people. Thus, after bankruptcy, an Emergency Manager and the city reaching a new low, black Detroiters just really were disillusioned and having a "black" mayor was simply not as important as it used to be.

Here is a little story. My brother-in-law was working on salvaging the building that would become part of Ford Field. He owns his own company and was there to collect and sell the scrap parts (I don't really know his business model that well). Anyway, he could not get much traction doing business with white clientele or buyers, as he explained to me, presenting himself as the "owner" of the company the buyers were doing business with. Thus, he changed his strategy and started presenting himself to them as a worker for the company. He told me that he would always say, during their negotiations and meetings, that he had to check back with his "boss". Once he did that, he sales started taking off.

I have a friend who lives in another state who started his own business. Again, he had trouble getting traction and convincing white potential clients to use his service, with him as the face of the business. Again, he changed his strategy and hired a white front person who presented themselves as the owner of the company while my friend in the background as an employee. His business took off after that. Then there is this story from the internet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApV0hszT-yo

My point is that there is plenty of evidence that whites are more comfortable doing business with whites than they are doing business with blacks, as general rule. Economics is a system based upon CONFIDENCE. That is why consumer confidence (now called sentiment) is an economic indicator tracked by the University of Michigan and is a bell weather for the direction of the economy. The evidence shows that whites are not confident in black leadership......at least not as much as they are confident in white leadership. This is why I think the Duggan becoming mayor was orchestrated (or helped along by corporate forces) as one of the key things that needed to take place for Detroit to comeback. They needed a white Mayor to boost white confidence.....so I am sure a lot of money from the corporate community went into Duggan's campaign.

I mean.....think about it. What is the perception of Africa and its leaders? Why does not the West have the type of Direct Foreign Investment in Africa they way it does in Asia and Latin America? They reason given will be incompetence and corruption and instability. However, I can name off more than a handful of African nations that have been stable, no coups for decades. Despite that, America would rather do direct foreign investment in a communist nation CHINA. Direct Foreign Investment has been the key to growth in the developing world. Africa, on the other hand, is largely ignored for such investment (unless its natural resources like oil) and are given conditional loans by our government with compound interest.

So when I look at the big picture......things are clear. This country has come a long way in regards to laws and consciousness concerning race. However, it's obvious that it is much harder to clear the programming in the subconscious. Subconsciously America is still that nation of people that sees black people as inferior. Am I mad or angry about it? Nope. That is just the way things are. Life is not fair and it will never be fair and one of the realities we have to deal with as African Americans in America is that others see us as less than them. For me, I just to keep the truth known so that black people will stop buying into....as demonstrated in the video with the kids and dolls.
So how did White America elect a Black President?
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Here.
14,574 posts, read 13,318,476 times
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Indetured Servant, with all due respect, I think you represent a lot of very intelligent African-Americans who grew up in black areas and who move to white areas and have some guilt for doing so. And to allay that guilt, you (and others like you) create this false narrative - bordering on fantasy - about continued racism and oppression that white America has inflicted on black America. However, the truth is that whites and blacks have continued to integrate and live peacefully together. I live in an integrated community (Eastpointe) where blacks and whites live side-by-side often in the same house, go to the same stores and restaurants, work at the same businesses, go to the same schools. Reading your posts sounds like the 1950s.

Now in all fairness, I should point out that there are a lot of very intelligent White-Americans who grew up in Detroit or the inner ring of suburbs who move out to the fringes of civilization at the first sign of black people and then proceed to lecture us on how horrible it is that White America has oppressed poor, helpless Black America and that Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton would have brought us all together. These are the breeding grounds of Social Justice Warriors.
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:08 AM
 
12,598 posts, read 7,629,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
So how did White America elect a Black President?
Actually, the majority of whites who voted... voted against the Black President. That said, its not an issue off race, for presidency, as much as it is an issue of party. However, if one is to argue that whites voting for a black president is demonstration counter to racism, then one would also be implying that a vote against Obama was a demonstration of racism. It's not that simple. Race plays a secondary role (distant second) to party, with Party having, by far, the largest influence.

That having been said, people who consider themselves Republicans or conservatives should not try to leverage the vote of white liberals, in support of a black candidate for President, as a demonstration that covers their butts too. In other words, white conservatives should not be implying that the election of a black president is proof that racism is not a problem......when white conservatives voted against him. I guess if we were to judge based upon the actions of white conservatives......I guess that would then be an argument that the America is racist. I mean if "liberals" are so bad and wrong why are conservatives using their behavior (voting in a black person as president) to prove something positive about racial relations in America? Why can't conservatives use their own behavior as demonstration.......if they are so "right"?

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-02-2016 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:28 AM
 
12,598 posts, read 7,629,699 times
Reputation: 4787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Indetured Servant, with all due respect, I think you represent a lot of very intelligent African-Americans who grew up in black areas and who move to white areas and have some guilt for doing so. And to allay that guilt, you (and others like you) create this false narrative - bordering on fantasy - about continued racism and oppression that white America has inflicted on black America. However, the truth is that whites and blacks have continued to integrate and live peacefully together. I live in an integrated community (Eastpointe) where blacks and whites live side-by-side often in the same house, go to the same stores and restaurants, work at the same businesses, go to the same schools. Reading your posts sounds like the 1950s.

Now in all fairness, I should point out that there are a lot of very intelligent White-Americans who grew up in Detroit or the inner ring of suburbs who move out to the fringes of civilization at the first sign of black people and then proceed to lecture us on how horrible it is that White America has oppressed poor, helpless Black America and that Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton would have brought us all together. These are the breeding grounds of Social Justice Warriors.

Your whole psycho analysis of my supposed "guilt" is based upon the premise that racism, for all intents and purposes, is a thing of the past and hence "something else" is really bothering me. Wrong. I actually live a majority "minority" suburb, where blacks are the largest "minority" group. I actually prefer that to an all black or mostly white community. I can live where I want and my first choice is a diverse community, the second is majority black and that is why I live where I live...guilt free....because its where I want to be.

That said, the present is 99.9999% the result of the past. Hence, its not current racism that is really weighing blacks down, its the legacy of past racism couple with a decline in real economic opportunity, sprinkled with a decline in the general culture of America, chimed in with a less virulent form of racism. In other words, past racism resulted in blacks being at the bottom of the hill and the decline of the real economy and culture is like a mudslide that makes it hard for blacks to climb up the hill and the level of racism that does exist, currently, only makes the climb harder, even if it is not the primary impediment any longer.

I can also guarantee you that at one point in time most of Detroit neighborhood and schools were integrated. Most of Southfield's neighborhoods and schools were once integrated, with people getting along fine. However, point in time snap shots blinds people to the trend of what is going on. Integration has been and usually is (at least in Michigan) simply the interim or transitional period of a racial change over. East Pointe is in the process of becoming majority black and so is Harper Woods. The schools are usually the first to turn. In fact, you can go to the website schooldigger.com and look at the demographic of schools. It is CLEAR that districts that are seeing a big increase in black student enrollment are experiencing a mass reduction in the number of white students. Its the same old pattern. If blacks start moving to inner ring suburbs and or sending their kids to school there, the process of white flight from the schools and cities begins to ramp up. Its the same ole same ole.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-02-2016 at 09:51 AM..
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Old 12-02-2016, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,289 posts, read 1,079,160 times
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I was suspecting the same thing; guilt. Racism certainly isn't a thing of the past, and most people accept this. However human nature has always tormented us with guilt. You lived here, left here, and now notice that the city is becoming somewhat reinvigorated. It bugs you, even though you no longer live in this state! Come back and help make it better, if it bothers you so much, and stop looking for excuses! It's unusual to harp over a community where you no longer live. You don't even keep to the premise that you initially presented when this re-configured thread was started. You're grasping at straws, and seem to become apoplectic and hysterical when someone disagrees with one of your presentations of "proof" that you are right. Guilt does that. Other phenomena can do that too, but I won't get into health issues here.
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