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Old 11-30-2016, 09:07 PM
 
12,561 posts, read 7,621,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Detroit has benefited for several years of good mayoral leadership (after a long period of spectacularly bad mayoral leadership during the late 20th Century and until 2008 of this Century). While not the only factor, it helps.
I think Detroit has simply benefited from a demographic who abandoned the city, returning and reinvesting in the city. Crime in Detroit is still Crime in Detroit. Poor schools are still poor schools (if not worse). Those were the said reasons that the white demographic and investments left the city in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's. What changed? Well......allowing the city proper to decline HURT ALL OF MICHIGAN. It hurt the ability of corporations in Michigan to attract the best and brightest young talent who coveted URBAN LIVING. Hence, young graduates flocked to cities with dense, vibrant, walkable central cities that offered public transportation, entertainment, culture, jobs and housing. Michigan cities were abandoned by the investment class....in favor of the suburbs.......almost like no other state. When I visited cities that had downtown retail, neighborhood Targets, Best Buy and other chains.......I was floored. Detroit HAD to turn around and the business community based in Detroit HAD to start investing in the city for their viability....lest they relocate to another state and city that was attractive to young people.

I strongly resent the implications and optics of believing that Detroit turned the corner........when it got a white mayor. Maybe white people are just more confident with white people running things before they feel comfortable investing in a place. The unfortunate thing about Detroit's Turn Around is that its starting to resemble apartheid era Johannesburg, SA, with a white core surrounded by Soweto, the black townships. I am loving the comeback of Detroit and Grand Rapids.......but man.......it is exposing some serious racial socioeconomic discrepancies. It's glaringly obvious......and not healthy in the long run.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:10 PM
 
4,170 posts, read 3,842,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post

I strongly resent the implications and optics of believing that Detroit turned the corner........when it got a white mayor. Maybe white people are just more confident with white people running things before they feel comfortable investing in a place. The unfortunate thing about Detroit's Turn Around is that its starting to resemble apartheid era Johannesburg, SA, with a white core surrounded by Soweto, the black townships. I am loving the comeback of Detroit and Grand Rapids.......but man.......it is exposing some serious racial socioeconomic discrepancies. It's glaringly obvious......and not healthy in the long run.
I think in trying to frame your narrative around racial biases, you are exposing your own racial bias. It's hard for me not to interpret this as "White people are moving back to Detroit, because Detroit now has a white mayor." In doing this you are glaringly, if not blatantly omitting the fact that the current economy in the Detroit area is the best it has been since the start of white flight(which was not a phenomenon exclusive to Detroit, or Michigan.) Without a good economy Detroit has NO chance of coming back regardless of the color of it's mayors skin.

Tying the fortunes of Detroit to what is in essence middle-upper class white people only moving back to Detroit because of a white mayor, is very intellectually dishonest and you know better than that. The infrastructure that has been put in place for this has been in progress for the last 20 years. As I recall the city experienced it's lowest declines during the 1990s, under a then mayor Dennis Archer who was not white. I will stand up to anyone who tries to deny that there are socio-economic disparities that exist among the races. As far as anything I have seen, middle class African Americans have been just as quick to leave the city as their white counterparts. Please tell me where this is not the case, and please tell me how this did not also contribute to the socio economic discrepancies?

Per usual you are here to remind us of these inequities, and per usual you never seem to propose any solution that will help fix the problem, and as far as i'm concerned you yourself are a part of it. You are so quick to cry foul from your ivory tower, wherever that may be. But you yourself a middle-upper class individual also left Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Michigan for better pastures. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and come back and help us fix the problem?
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,936,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
...Without a good economy Detroit has NO chance of coming back regardless of the color of it's mayors skin.

Tying the fortunes of Detroit to what is in essence middle-upper class white people only moving back to Detroit because of a white mayor, is very intellectually dishonest and you know better than that. The infrastructure that has been put in place for this has been in progress for the last 20 years. As I recall the city experienced it's lowest declines during the 1990s, under a then mayor Dennis Archer who was not white. I will stand up to anyone who tries to deny that there are socio-economic disparities that exist among the races. As far as anything I have seen, middle class African Americans have been just as quick to leave the city as their white counterparts. Please tell me where this is not the case, and please tell me how this did not also contribute to the socio economic discrepancies?

...
Well, I don't know about this.. if they had a bright blue mayor, that might be a selling point. "Hey, yeah, I'm moving to the town run by one of those things from Avatar.."

That being said, I agree with the rest of your post. It wasn't so much White flight as it was "upper and middle class flight" - it just so happened that during the 60's, 70's, and 80's the vast majority of Detroit's upper and middle class was White. This was the same everywhere, and to a point still is, but has seen significant improvement since the 1960s. As time went on, more Black people began to benefit from social improvements by being paid the same wage for the same job, as other races or being approved for loans in the suburbs. This led to much of the Black upper and middle class also deciding to leave Detroit, in the 90's and 00's, thus continue the decline of Detroit.

For proof of this, look at Southfield, which was 70% White in 1990 and is today 70% Black - but Southfield isn't Detroit. It is a far cry from Detroit, in fact I'd say most of the city is still pretty nice. The only reason people on here say it isn't is because surprise, surprise, racism happens online too and I suspect the demographics of the Detroit board reflect the demographics of Metro Detroit - making us about 80% white, we just don't have pictures of ourselves to go along with our profiles so we (mostly) avoid racial biases targeted at individuals, but they totally still exist targeted at groups. But here's a fun fact:

Southfield has a higher per-capita income at $28.096, than Livonia ($27,923), South Lyon ($26,187), or Sterling Heights ($24,958). For reference, Detroit comes in at $14,717 and Birmingham at $59,314. That's because those were higher income people leaving the city and settling in towns like Southfield, Oak Park and Farmington Hills. In the 1990s, Incomes over 75k only made up 10% of the city, but they made up 25% of the out-migration from Detroit.

Anyway, this really diverged quickly from the intended topic, which was it's not the 1960s or 1990s or even 2008. It's 2016, and a lot of good stuff happened in Detroit this week. I agree that Mayor Duggan has done a great job, but I'm not sure his whiteness has much to do with it any more than President Obama's blackness has anything to do with him having been a pretty good president. Some people are good leaders, others are not. Kwame was a crap leader. Duggan is a pretty good leader, but a perfect storm of investment, leadership, national interest, and hipsters has really changed the landscape of Detroit - let's hope this continues to spill out from Greater Downtown.
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:27 AM
 
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If it is exposing the racial discrepancies - what are you/we as a city doing to recruit upwardly mobile/high income producing black residents. Think of how Atlanta lured Detroit's educated and well paying black children - we need to reverse that.

It's not like the residents at Conner and Harper are suddenly going to get white collar jobs regardlesss of whoever is mayor. Each individual determines their future - via technical skills (e.g. asbestos removal, roofing, HVAC, flooring) or office level jobs. Blaming that lack of career upward mobility on anyone other than the individual only actually helps keep that person down while others advance and outpace them.
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,772 posts, read 65,683,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Well, I don't know about this.. if they had a bright blue mayor, that might be a selling point. "Hey, yeah, I'm moving to the town run by one of those things from Avatar.."


For proof of this, look at Southfield, which was 70% White in 1990 and is today 70% Black - but Southfield isn't Detroit. It is a far cry from Detroit, in fact I'd say most of the city is still pretty nice. The only reason people on here say it isn't is because surprise, surprise, racism happens online too and I suspect the demographics of the Detroit board reflect the demographics of Metro Detroit - making us about 80% white, we just don't have pictures of ourselves to go along with our profiles so we (mostly) avoid racial biases targeted at individuals, but they totally still exist targeted at groups. But here's a fun fact:

Southfield has a higher per-capita income at $28.096, than Livonia ($27,923), South Lyon ($26,187), or Sterling Heights ($24,958). For reference, Detroit comes in at $14,717 and Birmingham at $59,314. That's because those were higher income people leaving the city and settling in towns like Southfield, Oak Park and Farmington Hills. In the 1990s, Incomes over 75k only made up 10% of the city, but they made up 25% of the out-migration from Detroit.

Anyway, this really diverged quickly from the intended topic, which was it's not the 1960s or 1990s or even 2008. It's 2016, and a lot of good stuff happened in Detroit this week. I agree that Mayor Duggan has done a great job, but I'm not sure his whiteness has much to do with it any more than President Obama's blackness has anything to do with him having been a pretty good president. Some people are good leaders, others are not. Kwame was a crap leader. Duggan is a pretty good leader, but a perfect storm of investment, leadership, national interest, and hipsters has really changed the landscape of Detroit - let's hope this continues to spill out from Greater Downtown.
I would bet a majority of the new residents of Downtown and midtown (especially mid-town) do not know who the mayor is. Most people do not care.

When we were looking for a community to call home, we considered 200 cities. Narrowed it down to about 15, then to 5 and finally 1. Until we got down to the final 5 we had no idea who the mayor was of any of the communities. We wrote to the mayors of the 5 finalist communities and asked them to tell us about their community. Still we had no idea what their racial or cultural heritage was, nor did we care. Who the mayor was had no weight in our design at all. We wrote to them only in the home of getting more information about the community. Detroit was originally in the final 15. We knew about Kwame (although it was before he was fully exposed), but that never factored into our decision making process. Our interests were location, schools, opportunities for the kids to play, housing stock/architecture, amenities, community, safety, access. Who is the mayor never came into consideration. Why would I care who the mayor is? Whomever it is, they will not be there for much of the time that I will be there. Mayors come and go. Choosing a place to live based on who the mayor is this year is plain silly. I really do not think anyone is that stupid. What the mayor and council are doing could be significant. If your trash will not get picked up or the police will not come, that may factor in, but the name, gender or race of the mayor? that may change in a month.

Not long ago, I asked my siblings who the mayor of their respective communities was. None of them knew. None of them cared.

The only exceptions I can image would be a mayor who is widely known for corruption (like Kwame was, or Coleman Young before him), a really famous person (like Bing), or someone really unusual (like the Cat that is mayor of some Alaska town, or the high school kid). Because of the media attention, any of them could be a draw or a detriment, but that is only because of media attention. No one cares what their racial or cultural background is. Even though it would be neat to live in a place with an odd mayor like a cat or a kid, or a blue avatar guy, it is only a very temporary thing. Certainly not the basis for choosing a long term home.

I say Southfield is not very nice, because it is not very nice. I had no idea until reading the post above the residents were mostly black, if I had thought about it, I would have assumed otherwise. Southfield is not nice because it has no center, it is poorly planned/laid out, it is run down, dirty and has nothing to draw people that I can see. It is not awful, but it is not nice either, it just has no appeal, while there are other nearby communities that have substantial appeal. They have a center, or a really nice park/mall, or other ameneties. great schools, or amazing historic architecture, or just a really good lay out.plan, or they are rural or homey small townish, or they have an interesting or exciting downtown. . . Southfield has none of these. I do not think anyone sighs and says "Oh I wish I could live in Southfield" It has nothing to do with who lives there. Southfield has always been a place of very little appeal.

However on the original topic. Detroit has established itself as a real city now (to me). It is not just occasional events that bring people out. Every night when I leave work, there are people out and about, music playing, things to do. Even on weekdays and even in bad weather. This was not true even one year ago. The past year, it has really changed some more. The city has come back to life.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:00 AM
 
2,952 posts, read 4,353,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belleislerunner View Post
If it is exposing the racial discrepancies - what are you/we as a city doing to recruit upwardly mobile/high income producing black residents. Think of how Atlanta lured Detroit's educated and well paying black children - we need to reverse that.

It's not like the residents at Conner and Harper are suddenly going to get white collar jobs regardlesss of whoever is mayor. Each individual determines their future - via technical skills (e.g. asbestos removal, roofing, HVAC, flooring) or office level jobs. Blaming that lack of career upward mobility on anyone other than the individual only actually helps keep that person down while others advance and outpace them.
Exactly. But this is the most reviled message in America.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:04 AM
 
2,952 posts, read 4,353,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I think Detroit has simply benefited from a demographic who abandoned the city, returning and reinvesting in the city. Crime in Detroit is still Crime in Detroit. Poor schools are still poor schools (if not worse). Those were the said reasons that the white demographic and investments left the city in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's. What changed? Well......allowing the city proper to decline HURT ALL OF MICHIGAN. It hurt the ability of corporations in Michigan to attract the best and brightest young talent who coveted URBAN LIVING. Hence, young graduates flocked to cities with dense, vibrant, walkable central cities that offered public transportation, entertainment, culture, jobs and housing. Michigan cities were abandoned by the investment class....in favor of the suburbs.......almost like no other state. When I visited cities that had downtown retail, neighborhood Targets, Best Buy and other chains.......I was floored. Detroit HAD to turn around and the business community based in Detroit HAD to start investing in the city for their viability....lest they relocate to another state and city that was attractive to young people.

I strongly resent the implications and optics of believing that Detroit turned the corner........when it got a white mayor. Maybe white people are just more confident with white people running things before they feel comfortable investing in a place. The unfortunate thing about Detroit's Turn Around is that its starting to resemble apartheid era Johannesburg, SA, with a white core surrounded by Soweto, the black townships. I am loving the comeback of Detroit and Grand Rapids.......but man.......it is exposing some serious racial socioeconomic discrepancies. It's glaringly obvious......and not healthy in the long run.
Well, you know, at the last White People Meeting we decided to build the stadiums first.

We're looking at forcing everyone in the city limits to stay in school, learn a trade and have kids within a marriage circa BY 2017-2018.

Stay tuned!
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,936,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnynonos View Post
Well, you know, at the last White People Meeting....
Why do you guys never invite me to these? It's because of my freckles, isn't it? They get lighter in the winter, you know! I can bring Starbucks, wear flannel, and drive the Subaru! I'll even listen to TED talks the whole way so I can make conversation about wildlife restoration of the National Parks.

Actually... I do all those things anyway. *sigh* I am a walking cliché.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:15 AM
 
12,561 posts, read 7,621,430 times
Reputation: 4772
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
I think in trying to frame your narrative around racial biases, you are exposing your own racial bias. It's hard for me not to interpret this as "White people are moving back to Detroit, because Detroit now has a white mayor." In doing this you are glaringly, if not blatantly omitting the fact that the current economy in the Detroit area is the best it has been since the start of white flight(which was not a phenomenon exclusive to Detroit, or Michigan.) Without a good economy Detroit has NO chance of coming back regardless of the color of it's mayors skin.
Yes. I do have conditioned biases formed from the empirical evidence of 400 years of history in these lands. I know I lot of people want to pretend that no such history of race existed and or that there are no current reverberations or legacies in the condition of African Americans or the minds (subconscious if not conscious) of white America. However, I will remind you that the present is the summation and resultant of the PAST. Every action creates a reaction and as such the present is the reaction to the past.

Keep in mind also that I have witnessed decades of verbal attacks on the city of Detroit, its leadership, its people and how incompetence, corruption and crime permeated the place. The blacker the city became, the more it was caste aspersion upon not from only the suburbs, but also the out state population. In fact, every majority black city in Michigan has people and leadership looked upon as incompetent, corrupt and criminal and hence are generally seen as slit holes. Benton Harbor....check. Flint....check. Muskegon Heights....check. Detroit...check. You can visit any news message board and read the racist comments.

Thus, because this nation has a long history of racism and because in my 50 years I have experienced and witnessed racism is western and eastern Michigan, I feel that it is with merits that I make my claims. Tell me the year that racism was eradicated from the hearts and minds of people who for centuries looked down upon black people? Where is the evidence of absence? So yes....I am putting my racial conditioning on display.


Quote:
Tying the fortunes of Detroit to what is in essence middle-upper class white people only moving back to Detroit because of a white mayor, is very intellectually dishonest and you know better than that. The infrastructure that has been put in place for this has been in progress for the last 20 years. As I recall the city experienced it's lowest declines during the 1990s, under a then mayor Dennis Archer who was not white. I will stand up to anyone who tries to deny that there are socio-economic disparities that exist among the races. As far as anything I have seen, middle class African Americans have been just as quick to leave the city as their white counterparts. Please tell me where this is not the case, and please tell me how this did not also contribute to the socio economic discrepancies?
Maybe you do not understand....but Detroit's growth to its zenith of nearly 2 million people, circa 1950, was fueled by the white demographic. The white demographic was responsible for the growth of Detroit to its zenith and the flip side of that is that the departure of that demographic was responsible for the big decline of the city. African Americans are only 15% of the states population. We should not be 85% of any city in Michigan....and that would not be if not for the intransigence of many whites to live and send their kids to the same schools as African Americans (in large numbers)....or to live politically under black majority rule.

Detroit's white population is at 5% of its peak population (there used to be ~ 1.5 million whites living in the city of Detroit). Detroit black population is at about 70% of its peak (there used to be 777,000 blacks in the city...circa 2001). The latter left due to the housing bubble anomaly opening up the suburbs.....and they left for places like Atanta, Houston, Dallas and the states economy collapsed. In other words, blacks did not leave Detroit for the same reason that whites were leaving Detroit. The black population of Detroit continued to rise up until 2001, while the white population continued to fall.

My thing is this. Whites should have never left like they did. The city of Detroit should have never have gone from 85% white to 85% black. That could have only happened by blacks attempt at integration creating the reaction of evacuation in the white population. Blacks integrated and whites vacated. That is how the city went from 85% white to 85% black and how it lost over a million people because more whites were moving out than blacks moving in in the transition.

Let me go or record as saying that I am FOR an integrated balanced city racially. I think that it is a GOOD thing that whites are moving back to Detroit and billions of investment is going on. My only thing is that it is exposing (not creating) deep racial socioeconomic schisms. One would have to be blind not to see them. We do not want to do the 60's over again......do we?

Quote:
Per usual you are here to remind us of these inequities, and per usual you never seem to propose any solution that will help fix the problem, and as far as i'm concerned you yourself are a part of it. You are so quick to cry foul from your ivory tower, wherever that may be. But you yourself a middle-upper class individual also left Detroit, Grand Rapids, and Michigan for better pastures. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and come back and help us fix the problem?
Here is the thing. My parents left Mississippi because the racism stunted them economically, culturally and psychologically. My life was much better than my parents, but I too found Michigan to be stunting to my growth for the same root cause. I am almost positive that I would not have achieved what I have achieved had I stayed in Michigan, given the same effort.

I cannot fix a problem that at its root is subconscious and people do not even recognize it. In other words, you cannot stay and help fix a problem when the people causing a lot of the problem do not even recognize their complicity.

What gets manifested is not what is wanted......but what is believed. Its called self fulling prophecy. The black condition in America is the resultant of the beliefs of the larger society concerning blacks....and blacks, to a large degree, have been conditioned by the larger society to believe the same about themselves.
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Old 12-01-2016, 07:57 AM
 
4,170 posts, read 3,842,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
My thing is this. Whites should have never left like they did. The city of Detroit should have never have gone from 85% white to 85% black. That could have only happened by blacks attempt at integration creating the reaction of evacuation in the white population. Blacks integrated and whites vacated. That is how the city went from 85% white to 85% black and how it lost over a million people because more whites were moving out than blacks moving in in the transition.

I don't disagree with any of this. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone out of conjecture declares that Detroit's collapse was due to the fortunes of the auto industry and not race.

Quote:
Let me go or record as saying that I am FOR an integrated balanced city racially. I think that it is a GOOD thing that whites are moving back to Detroit and billions of investment is going on. My only thing is that it is exposing (not creating) deep racial socioeconomic schisms. One would have to be blind not to see them. We do not want to do the 60's over again......do we?

How do we fix the deep racial socioeconomic schisms without cooperation and understanding from both sides. I am not suggesting that you don't want to cooperate, but as your frustration and resentment comes through in your writing, I don't see anywhere where you suggest that both communities play a part in fixing it. It comes across as white people have to fix it and black people will judge the results. Things will never improve if that is truly the sentiment.


Quote:
Here is the thing. My parents left Mississippi because the racism stunted them economically, culturally and psychologically. My life was much better than my parents, but I too found Michigan to be stunting to my growth for the same root cause. I am almost positive that I would not have achieved what I have achieved had I stayed in Michigan, given the same effort.


I cannot fix a problem that at its root is subconscious and people do not even recognize it. In other words, you cannot stay and help fix a problem when the people causing a lot of the problem do not even recognize their complicity.

I have often heard that the quiet and subtle racism in Michigan(and a lot of the Midwest) is actually worse than current conditions in the south. Most people aren't overtly racist, but they do little if anything to understand the other point of view.



Quote:
What gets manifested is not what is wanted......but what is believed. Its called self fulling prophecy. The black condition in America is the resultant of the beliefs of the larger society concerning blacks....and blacks, to a large degree, have been conditioned by the larger society to believe the same about themselves.
Believe it or not, even though I stand up to you sometimes and am a contrarian pain in the ass, I do absorb the things you say. The gist of which I believe to be that here we are white people celebrating the resurgence of our cities. All of these pretty buildings and coffee shops with hipsters are going in, and 20 years ago most of us felt like our cities would never catch up. But as we sit in our happy little bubble watching all of this market rate housing going up, no one is addressing or really trying to recognize the root cause that created these conditions to begin with. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but when you go on these rants after someone is excited, what I interpret is a frustration at greater blindness/indifference to a bigger issue.


I admit that I am happy to see these cities that are iconic to my existence advance. I also admit that I get concerned when I see continued reports about conditions not improving for minorities, or that they do not feel a part of it. I know it's not something I can truly understand from my own bubble. You by your own intellect acknowledge that overall conditions can't improve without these kinds of investments. But again you are able to vent your frustrations, you acknowledge the conditioning of your resentment, but you never acknowledge that you too must also rise above bias's with the rest of us if we were to ever truly get past it. I don't want to be a part of the problem. I like you was born into a circumstance, this is something I can't control any more than you could. Why do I feel like you're telling me is it my job alone to fix it?
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