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Old 02-10-2017, 07:29 AM
 
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Caseville became a city in 2010.
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:39 AM
 
5,114 posts, read 4,813,838 times
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Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
The newest I can find is Auburn Hills in 1983. There must be some newer ones.
Wrap your brain around this - the City of Rochester Hills incorporated in 1984. It was formerly Avon Township.
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:58 AM
 
4,153 posts, read 3,823,943 times
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What value does it provide to have so many municipalities in such small areas.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Michigan
4,571 posts, read 7,265,168 times
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Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
What value does it provide to have so many municipalities in such small areas.
Like-minded people having more control over their neighborhood. To some, that's a pretty big value.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Like-minded people having more control over their neighborhood. To some, that's a pretty big value.
There are plenty of cities that are larger than 38sq mi with neighborhood associations inside of them that still have control of their surroundings. Plano TX has 274k people in 71sq mi. That's one of several suburbs like it across the country. I have a hard time believing the people who live in those suburbers somehow have a measurable quality of life difference(compared to the "Royal Oak 10") because they can't split themselves off into what are essentially overlapping micro cities.


From a realist standpoint this seems more like the stubbornness of tradition giving the partcipants a false sense of anxiety, and entitlement, over invisible lines that separate them from people across the street. Human beings are naturally inclined to resist change at any level, even if they don't fully understand why they are resisting. It's something that has held SE Michigan back on a regional level for decades because until recently the several hundred municipal governments couldn't agree on a strategy or initiative for anything.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,104 posts, read 1,348,306 times
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Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
2. "How many millions of taxpayer dollars could be redirected to infrastructure projects like rebuilding roads, if there weren't several different redundant services and administrations serving such a small area?" Please tell us, because I would like to know. I don't believe there is any evidence of this, but I would love to be proved wrong.
I did a very cursory peak at the 10 municipalities he mentioned. Below is a list of reoccurring themes:
city manager
city attorney
city clerk
police
fire
parks and recreation
building and planning

I realize not all 10 municipalities have department heads or chiefs for all 7 categories.
But a lot of them do. A lot of those chiefs or department heads have secretaries. They also may have assistant chiefs/heads who also have secretaries. So if governments were consolidated there would be a whole lot of redundancy at management levels. To a lesser degree there might be some redundancy at lower levels. Maybe 60 fire trucks become 50-55 fire trucks. Same with police, snow plows, lawn mowing, building inspectors. Most of those people not only draw paychecks but benefits that may more than double the cost over and above those paychecks.
I could easily see consolidation saving 7-10 million dollars a year.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Here.
14,551 posts, read 13,280,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig11152 View Post
I did a very cursory peak at the 10 municipalities he mentioned. Below is a list of reoccurring themes:
city manager
city attorney
city clerk
police
fire
parks and recreation
building and planning

I realize not all 10 municipalities have department heads or chiefs for all 7 categories.
But a lot of them do. A lot of those chiefs or department heads have secretaries. They also may have assistant chiefs/heads who also have secretaries. So if governments were consolidated there would be a whole lot of redundancy at management levels. To a lesser degree there might be some redundancy at lower levels. Maybe 60 fire trucks become 50-55 fire trucks. Same with police, snow plows, lawn mowing, building inspectors. Most of those people not only draw paychecks but benefits that may more than double the cost over and above those paychecks.
I could easily see consolidation saving 7-10 million dollars a year.

That seems very logical, but I doubt it could be supported with numbers. I'd like to see large and small cities compared by number of city employees per resident...and government expenses per resident. Most small cities do not pay their mayor and council people very much (less than $10,000/year). Also as an organization of any type gets bigger, you have many more levels of management. In a small city, you have city manager level, department head level, and worker level. In a large city, you have all types of deputy levels, assistant administrators, etc. I've heard that the Detroit Public School System has more administrators than they do teachers.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Here.
14,551 posts, read 13,280,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
There are plenty of cities that are larger than 38sq mi with neighborhood associations inside of them that still have control of their surroundings. Plano TX has 274k people in 71sq mi. That's one of several suburbs like it across the country. I have a hard time believing the people who live in those suburbers somehow have a measurable quality of life difference(compared to the "Royal Oak 10") because they can't split themselves off into what are essentially overlapping micro cities.


From a realist standpoint this seems more like the stubbornness of tradition giving the partcipants a false sense of anxiety, and entitlement, over invisible lines that separate them from people across the street. Human beings are naturally inclined to resist change at any level, even if they don't fully understand why they are resisting. It's something that has held SE Michigan back on a regional level for decades because until recently the several hundred municipal governments couldn't agree on a strategy or initiative for anything.
Again, I think you are under the assumption that this happened recently. The inner ring suburbs were incorporated in the 1920s. At the time, even the city of Detroit still hadn't reached its current limit. The suburbs started as little villages out in the farmland. There wasn't much thought given to "regionalism" like today. People weren't thinking down the road 100 years and contemplating how silly they would look at having set up a 5 sq. mi. city.


The Grosse Pointes were probably the "village" model for the inner ring suburbs. The Grosse Pointes were settled earlier by wealthy Detroiter. Grosse Pointe Shores didn't give up its village status until 2009.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:22 PM
 
4,153 posts, read 3,823,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Again, I think you are under the assumption that this happened recently. The inner ring suburbs were incorporated in the 1920s. At the time, even the city of Detroit still hadn't reached its current limit. The suburbs started as little villages out in the farmland. There wasn't much thought given to "regionalism" like today. People weren't thinking down the road 100 years and contemplating how silly they would look at having set up a 5 sq. mi. city.


The Grosse Pointes were probably the "village" model for the inner ring suburbs. The Grosse Pointes were settled earlier by wealthy Detroiter. Grosse Pointe Shores didn't give up its village status until 2009.
I am not under that assumption. I do understand some of them predate present day Detroit city limits. I just don't see how they are necessary in the modern civic environment, especially when they are completely land locked by other municipalities. We are basically talking about consolidating them into a city that has the same footprint as Troy, Sterling Heights, and several other Detroit area suburbs. I don't hear a lot of chatter that those cities are too big and need to be broken up.


I would say the same thing about Highland Park and Hamtramck being unecessary. I would also say that the Grosse Pointes could consolidate and be a stronger regional entity. I get how things worked in and around the turn of the 20th century. The circumstances today make them seem less relevant.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,104 posts, read 1,348,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
That seems very logical, but I doubt it could be supported with numbers
Maybe not 7-10 million. Maybe my Ann Arbor experience with Government salaries is distorted a bit. But I have no doubt million's (plural) could be saved and I still think more than 2 million. I think 3 million could be low.
There is a reason I didn't mention city councils or mayors. I stuck with upper management positions that draw a decent salary, have benefits and may come with personal staff like a secretary. Those upper management positions are where redundancy is easy to find. I only tossed in the theory of some redundancy at lower levels to sweeten the pot.

As a side bar A quick look didn't turn up salary information easily. Maybe I'm spoiled since we can find that information for Ann Arbor city employees and everybody at U of M easily.
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