U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan > Detroit
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,937,484 times
Reputation: 3554

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
...if you ask someone from Ann Arbor to picture downtown the first thought they would have is of State or Main Street in downtown Ann Arbor and not the Renaissance Center. Maybe that's insular, but I don't see why you should expect anything different considering the geography. There isn't any malice or snobbery involved from my perspective. ...
I don't think Ann Arbor is unique in that. When we lived in Royal Oak if I told my wife "Hey, let's go for a walk downtown," that meant we were going to walk down to 11 Mile and Main. Now that we're in Berkley when I tell her "Hey, do you want to go downtown for dinner?" She'll often follow up with, "Yeah, walk to Downtown Berkley or bike to Royal Oak?" That's not unique to Ann Arbor, but nobody in Royal Oak or Ferndale would say, "We're not part of Detroit" because that's just absurd.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-20-2017, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
1,530 posts, read 1,467,990 times
Reputation: 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I don't really understand how that makes a place sound insular and snobbish. Don't get me wrong people don't think they're too good to go to Metro Detroit, they just don't need to. What is the benefit of going to Ferndale or Royal Oak if you live in Ann Arbor? That is 2 hours of driving just to get a very similar experience to downtown Ann Arbor itself. If you grew up in Ann Arbor prior to Detroit's resurgence in the past few years, what was the incentive to go there? The thinking in Michigan in the 1980s and 90s was that Ann Arbor was the closest thing the state had to a vibrant cosmopolitan city, which should tell you a lot. Parents would plead with their kids to consider moving to Ann Arbor instead of Chicago or New York or whatever, this isn't based on growing up in Ann Arbor these are things I observed in Livonia. Older generations around here are still more prone to thinking Ann Arbor is the coolest place around. I don't necessarily agree with that thinking, but if you've never encountered it in Metro Detroit then I would suggest talking to more people over the age of 30.

The issue is that the city is betwixt and between. It is the absolute fringe of anything that could be called Suburban Detroit, beyond that it is closer to Jackson and Lansing than most places in Suburban Detroit. You can argue that it's isolated from those things or you can argue that it's at the center of its own thing. All I am saying is that most people who live here see it as the latter or, to put it a way it was described to me by my girlfriend who grew up here, if you ask someone from Ann Arbor to picture downtown the first thought they would have is of State or Main Street in downtown Ann Arbor and not the Renaissance Center. Maybe that's insular, but I don't see why you should expect anything different considering the geography. There isn't any malice or snobbery involved from my perspective. You do still have those older people for whom Ann Arbor represented something more like what Detroit and Grand Rapids eventually became, but that is a dying ideology that is so clearly not supported by facts on the ground that I think you would be okay to just dismiss it
It just sounds insular and provincial to me to just be satisfied with being in a small city and not want to enjoy or explore a huge metro region that is literally right next door with so many different things to do and see. A city the size of Ann Arbor can only offer so much before you just keep doing the same things and going to the same places over and over again. At some point I would be craving some kind of new experience and would want to find some new places to explore. Metro Detroit offers so many options in so many different cities, I just don't get why you wouldn't want to drive for half an hour or 45 minutes every once in a while to see what is offered, and maybe find some new fun places that you can enjoy, that's all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-20-2017, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Chicago
941 posts, read 847,050 times
Reputation: 1112
We can agree to disagree here, but I think most people live near areas that have certain amenities because they intend to use those amenities. Most people go home from work, eat, watch TV and go to bed, there really isn't time in most people's lives for 45-hour long excursions especially if those excursions are supposed to involve drinking or staying out past 11 p.m. Is there any real incentive for somebody who lives over an hour away to go to a show in Pontiac when they'd have an hour long drive home? Frankly I don't think many people who live in Oakland and Macomb counties come to Ann Arbor that often, either. Like I said these are just geographic realities... Ann Arbor is easily the second-largest job center and has the second largest downtown of any City in Southeastern Michigan and it's on the absolute fringe of that conurbation, the result is inevitably going to be somewhat insular. It's not like people from Canton go to St. Clair Shores that often, anyway... my mother's sister lives in Romeo and we haven't seen them in years because travel from the east side to the west side is really annoying.

I also know that anybody who lives in Ann Arbor and works east of Livonia have people tell them that they're crazy literally every single day, which should probably be an indication of how people in most of Metro Detroit consider Ann Arbor: kind of a place apart.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-20-2017, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Chicago
941 posts, read 847,050 times
Reputation: 1112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Ann Arbor would be self-sufficient, I agree, but it absolutely benefits from proximity to Detroit. Contrast it with towns like State College, PA (2.5 hours from Pittsburgh) or South Bend, IN (2 hours from Chicago). Ann Arbor is a way better town than either of those, despite the universities all being relatively comparable. So yeah, Ann Arbor is self-sufficient, in the same way State College or South Bend are, but what makes Ann Arbor special is that it's located within one of the largest metros in the nation.
This is a neat little theory, but it ignores a good amount of institutional differences that play a big part in the vibrancy of a place. State College is not home to the Penn State University Hospital, for example... the UM hospital is the reason the University of Michigan is the largest employer in the state and that creates an affluent population and worker base in Ann Arbor which drives development. Penn State is also far more decentralized, most underclassmen attend branch campuses and the University is less research-intensive than Michigan ( half as many grad students, a third as much in the endowment) which means that Ann Arbor benefits in ways State College does not from having a university. The tech sector in Ann Arbor, for example, exists as a result of the University churning out research in that field.

Notre Dame has many of the same differences. No hospital or medical school, only 3000 graduate students, nearly 1/6th the faculty of Michigan. Plus South Bend is an industrial town with a very blue collar vibe, if you have ever been there you would see that Notre Dame is kind of separated out from the city and most of its support staff lives as close to the campus as possible.

You could better compare Ann Arbor with college towns like Madison and Iowa City and Bloomington and Asheville which are not located any closer to major metropolitan areas than Notre Dame or Penn State.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-20-2017, 11:21 PM
 
171 posts, read 161,814 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Ann Arbor would be self-sufficient, I agree, but it absolutely benefits from proximity to Detroit. Contrast it with towns like State College, PA (2.5 hours from Pittsburgh) or South Bend, IN (2 hours from Chicago). Ann Arbor is a way better town than either of those, despite the universities all being relatively comparable. So yeah, Ann Arbor is self-sufficient, in the same way State College or South Bend are, but what makes Ann Arbor special is that it's located within one of the largest metros in the nation.

Playing around with the SEMCOG traffic map shows that traffic volumes on M14 or I94 west of Detroit are about the same as you'd find on M53 or I94 northeast of Detroit. Nobody would try to make the argument that northern Macomb County isn't part of Metro Detroit, but the number of people going to and from the region is similar to the number going to and from Washtenaw County. And this whole discussion really speaks to the snobbishness I'm talking about. Ann Arbor wants to make sure everyone knows it's separate. "Oh, we're not associated with the hoologans out east." It reminds of how Provo acts toward Salt Lake City or Irvine toward Los Angeles. C'mon guys, you're one continuous city, just because you're one of the nicer exurbs and have your own established industry and character doesn't actually mean you're not part of the greater city. Without the proximity and economic dependence to the large city, the small city wouldn't be quite what it is.

Regarding the median income number from craig's post, this is highly skewed by the number of <25 earning <$10,000 (many of whom come from relatively affluent families). While median income is indeed pretty average for Southeast Michigan, when you look at incomes by age or family size you see that those into their careers earn significant more than the average Michigan family. The median family of 4 in A2 earns $118,400 and 12.5% of families earn more than $200k per year. Those numbers are about on par with some of the more modestly upscale suburbs like Northville or Rochester Hills. We can cherry pick statistics to support an agenda all day, but the point is Ann Arbor is for the most part upper-middle class and one of the wealthier municipalities in the state, and the nation. This is not a bad thing, actually it's a very desirable thing, it only becomes bad when it takes on that certain unquantifiable attitude (Birmingham has it, Huntington Woods does not). This statement is purely subjective, but Ann Arbor has that attitude. That's why I don't particularly like it. It reminds me of Orange County or Northern Utah Valley.

A2 Income Numbers from CD - //www.city-data.com/income/inco...-Michigan.html
Wait, did you just compare Ann Arbor to Orange County? As in Orange County, California? They are worlds apart -the OC is like the seventh circle of hell - Ann Arbor is a fun place to go on a day trip with your kids - the Hand's On museum is great and you will see people from all walks of life there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2017, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,937,484 times
Reputation: 3554
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
Ann Arbor is easily the second-largest job center and has the second largest downtown of any City in Southeastern Michigan ...
I also know that anybody who lives in Ann Arbor and works east of Livonia have people tell them that they're crazy literally every single day, which should probably be an indication of how people in most of Metro Detroit consider Ann Arbor: kind of a place apart.
According to SEMCOG tables pulled from the 2015 ACS survey:
Southfield has 153,408 jobs
Troy has 152,129
Ann Arbor has 144,899
So not quite easily the second largest job center, and thinking anything more than 3 towns over is "crazy" is pretty insular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
This is a neat little theory, but it ignores a good amount of institutional differences that play a big part in the vibrancy of a place...
All right, first of all comparing UM to PSU or ND is not a bad thing. These are all great schools that anyone should be proud to attend. UM has has advantages, as do PSU and ND. This is a good point that you make about PSU having less students in College Park than UM in Ann Arbor, so maybe College Park is a bad comparison, but the reality is still that UM is part of a city which was once its own metro area, which has since grown into the larger metro area of Detroit. Trying to draw a line between the two is silly. Is Canton part of Metro Ann Arbor? Okay, no, so is Superior? No, I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of that either. At that point you're into Ann Arbor TWP and Ann Arbor City. So are you telling me that Ann Arbor is its own metro area which directly borders another metro area, and that they are separate and distinct and they don't completely depend on/benefit from each other? C'mon, stop being ridiculous.

Iowa City and Bloomington are better comparisons, thanks for that - and again, I'd insist that Ann Arbor is a better city than either of these due to the influence and benefit it receives from Detroit. Madison is.. well.. I don't want to start down that rabbit hole, so I'll just smile and nod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothwells mum View Post
Wait, did you just compare Ann Arbor to Orange County? As in Orange County, California? They are worlds apart -the OC is like the seventh circle of hell - Ann Arbor is a fun place to go on a day trip with your kids - the Hand's On museum is great and you will see people from all walks of life there.
Sorry, I should have been more clear on that. That specific attitude reminds me of the Orange County or Utah County. Ann Arbor is indeed worlds better than the OC (which is in fact the seventh circle of hell), but when people there try to act like it's not directly influenced and benefited by its location within Metro Detroit, it reminds me of when people in Huntington Beach try to act like it's not part of the LA Metro and totally just its own thing, or people in Provo try to act like it's not directly influenced and benefited by Salt Lake City.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2017, 06:50 AM
 
981 posts, read 1,121,144 times
Reputation: 1099
As someone who went to Penn State and spent 5 years in State College I agree that there is no comparison in terms of Ann Arbor vs. State College. State College is a stereotypical college town where everything is directly or indirectly associated to the university. The closest major employment base is Harrisburg which is 1.5 hours away, the the closest major metropolitan areas - Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Baltimore are all 3+ hours away.

State College only has a small limited about of R&D businesses have some linkage to the university, they have no major hospital system, and there is almost no young professionals in the town due to the lack of any major employers outside of the university. Recent growth in the town has been from an influx of retirees and its become a regional destination for big box retail for the surrounding counties that are full of some combination of super conservatives, gun lovers, bible bangers, meth heads, rural poverty, and wilderness.

Ann Arbor has a much larger professional community for both those who work for businesses in the Ann Arbor area and for those who commute into Metro or downtown Detroit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2017, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,776 posts, read 65,692,477 times
Reputation: 32973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothwells mum View Post
Wait, did you just compare Ann Arbor to Orange County? As in Orange County, California? They are worlds apart -the OC is like the seventh circle of hell - Ann Arbor is a fun place to go on a day trip with your kids - the Hand's On museum is great and you will see people from all walks of life there.
Having lived in both places for about 20 years each, I can say the comparison is a bit ridiculous, but so is the "Seventh Circle Of Hell" moniker. Orange County has a lot going for it. Like any place with a population in excess of 3 million, there is no rational way to generalize about the whole place. You might be able to generalize about a few cities (for example Irvine and its clone cities can reasonably be described as the heart of soulless suburbia), but there is nothing consitent or generally true about the entire county, except may be say it does not rain much and rarely snows. Ann Arbor is a terrific place, but it is not the great Mecca of anything. There are good things and bad things about it. I guess that is something you can say the two places have in common, both have good things and bad things about them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2017, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Chicago
941 posts, read 847,050 times
Reputation: 1112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
According to SEMCOG tables pulled from the 2015 ACS survey:
Southfield has 153,408 jobs
Troy has 152,129
Ann Arbor has 144,899
So not quite easily the second largest job center, and thinking anything more than 3 towns over is "crazy" is pretty insular.
As someone who literally commutes "three towns over" to Detroit, I can tell you that A.) everyone feels the need to tell you that you are crazy for doing it and B.) people who live in suburban Detroit are the ones who feel it to be so, not Ann Arborites. You get more judgement from people in the tri-county area commuting from Washtenaw County than you do commuting from similarly remote outposts like Howell, in fact. Again, you will have to trust my lived experience here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
All right, first of all comparing UM to PSU or ND is not a bad thing. These are all great schools that anyone should be proud to attend. UM has has advantages, as do PSU and ND. This is a good point that you make about PSU having less students in College Park than UM in Ann Arbor, so maybe College Park is a bad comparison, but the reality is still that UM is part of a city which was once its own metro area, which has since grown into the larger metro area of Detroit. Trying to draw a line between the two is silly. Is Canton part of Metro Ann Arbor? Okay, no, so is Superior? No, I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of that either. At that point you're into Ann Arbor TWP and Ann Arbor City. So are you telling me that Ann Arbor is its own metro area which directly borders another metro area, and that they are separate and distinct and they don't completely depend on/benefit from each other? C'mon, stop being ridiculous.
I mean, you can take this up with the Census Bureau. Ann Arbor simply doesn't even broach the numbers of commuters needed to be part of the Detroit MSA. There are hundreds of thousands of people commuting between Oakland, Wayne and Macomb counties every day... more people commute between any two of them on a daily basis than commute into and out of Washtnaw County combined. 260,000 people commute into Oakland County every day (almost entirely from Wayne, Macomb and Genessee) and 172,000 commute out of Oakland County every day (almost entirely to Wayne and Macomb). Washtenaw is small potatoes comparatively... 71,000 people commute in (almost half from Wayne County, with more coming from far off spots like Lenawee and Jackson counties than the rest of Metro Detroit) while a paltry 30,000 people commute out, almost entirely to Wayne County.

Is it silly to draw a line and say Canton is in a different Metro Area to Ann Arbor? Maybe. But the when a full four times as many people in the county Canton is in are going to Oakland County every day as are hopping the border into Washtenaw, it is a bit harder to sell the idea that this is one big, integrated metro area. It may feel like one big metro area to you, which is fair enough. You have something of a bird's eye perspective of the area, being new to it. But the truth is that, to a very real extent, Inkster Road and 8 Mile represent pretty hard divisions beyond which Ann Arbor is not really a place people go. That leaves a small sliver of Metro Detroit connected to A2... it might back up your point that Ann Arbor is too far from everything, but it certainly should underscore my point that you shouldn't expect it to be otherwise or interpret that isolation as anything other than natural.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2017, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,937,484 times
Reputation: 3554
Oakland County is home to 1.25 million people. Washtenaw County has 0.35 million. There are also 970,000 jobs in Oakland County, vs. 285,000 in Washtenaw County. It makes perfect sense than the traffic volume between Oakland and Wayne would be roughly 3-4x higher than that of Washtenaw and Wayne. I would assume traffic between Oakland/Wayne is also about 30% higher than Macomb/Wayne based on having 30% more people and 30% more jobs. I don't understand how this is at all confusing or a topic of debate.

I know the how the census bureau defines it, and I also disagree with defining things this way for 2017 and estimate this will not be the case in the official data collected in 2020 - but the point stands that someone (you?) was saying "Ann Arbor is the best place in Metro Detroit, for everything, period, full stop. It's so good it's not even Metro Detroit." to which I disagreed, stating that rather - while a good place and a great college town and a very fancy, upscale suburb, but it is not the best place in Metro Detroit. That being said, it is definitely largely influenced by Metro Detroit, strongly enough that it is considered part of it, especially for the purpose of this little analysis."

And now we're here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan > Detroit
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:21 AM.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top