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Old 06-26-2017, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Chicago
934 posts, read 842,316 times
Reputation: 1095

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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
You must understand this is a person that is very, very, very down on Detroit and the Metro Area. I can understand why. It lacks the premier urban experience. The City as a whole is very depressed. We lack rapid transit. The thing that I don't understand, is that he doesn't have anything positive to say about the resurgence of downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods. You would be hard-pressed to find a post in which he DOES NOT take a dig at Detroit or its suburbs. You can still be critical of the city and area, but still acknowledge the great things that are happening in the Villages, the East Riverfront, and the New Center.

He is entitled to his opinion. 5-10 times is hyperbole for sure, but Chicago offers significantly more. Chicago is a world class city, while Detroit is "found wanting" (to quote the Bible).
I have plenty of positive things to say about Detroit, dude. Not that I ought to risk doxing myself here, but this is my Facebook background picture:



I mostly respond to the tone of things, I have no issue with the city of Detroit and am beyond glad to see it's resurgence. I often trek down there on weekends to ride along the Dequindre Cut, I volunteer all over the city through my job, I take improv classes in Hamtramck. I love Detroit. The majority of my posts here are attempting to strike a realistic balance between the boosterism of some and the dumb anti-Detroit suburbanite **** of others. I am not prepared to tell people from out of town to move to different parts of the city because I know that people from other parts of the country likely aren't expecting what they will get with Detroit, which could poison their entire experience. I also tend to defend Ann Arbor, because this has been my home for most of my adult life and it is a bit of a target on many Detroit area forums (so is Grand Rapids at times). I often call out Ann Arborites for their provincialism.

As to the 5-10x number, it was not pulled from my ass. As I said, you can think of anything you want and look into it. I'll give you some examples of things I am interested in using Yelp results (Yelp gives the tri-county area for Detroit and only Chicago city for Chicago):

653 Chinese restaurants in Metro Detroit vs 1500 in Chicago (between 2-3 times)
362 record stores in Metro Detroit vs 1356 in Chicago (between 4-5 times)
1800 coffee shops in Metro Detroit vs 4500 in Chicago (between 2-3 times)
30 results for poke bowls in Metro Detroit vs 280 in Chicago (between 9-10 times)
94 results for bubble tea in Metro Detroit vs 436 in Chicago (between 4-5 times)
2 barcades in Metro Detroit vs 17 in Chicago (between 8-9 times)

Like I say, this is personalized for me and reflects things I like (namely Asian food and hipstery pastimes)... on all but the most general levels (Chinese food and coffee shops), Chicago is offering me at least 4 times as much as Metro Detroit. I would guess, just using simple demography, that the average Ann Arbor person is probably more aligned with me in terms of interests, too. Why not NYC? New York is both pricier and too far to drive to for an overnight trip. As for why Chicago is a personal preference for me, it relates to a sense of Midwestern pride, general affordability and family/friend connections.

I really enjoy MS313's perspectives in particular because they are often coming from a POV that I'm unfamiliar with (specifically, an African American perspective) and offer a lot of insight into what people from different communities are interested in. We all have our own perspectives to contribute, which is something I appreciate about this forum, I do often find that most here do not have the same interests, etc as me and that is fine... the world needs people who love shopping malls and chain restaurants as much as it needs people who like farmers markets and Trinidadian curries. I would also like to do my part to get this thread back on topic so will be doing the form from the OP in a little bit as my work schedule allows.

Last edited by brodie734; 06-26-2017 at 08:36 AM..
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,929,903 times
Reputation: 3554
So... what you're saying is that some have visited all 1,800 coffee shops in Metro Detroit, and Chicago is better because people can go to 2-3x more coffee shops before they exhaust their options? I see.. well.. yes, in that case, you do you, but I think it's safe to say that the average food enthusiast will be complacent with "only" 94 places to get a bubble tea and "only" 30 unique places to try different pokébowls. As much as I like to pretend I'm a coffee enthusiast, I've probably only been to 30 different coffee shops since moving here in 2015.

I know that National Geographic, Zagat, and I have low standards, but personally I think the food scene in Detroit is pretty good - even if seemingly 800 of those 1,800 coffee shops are Biggby
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Chicago
934 posts, read 842,316 times
Reputation: 1095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
So... what you're saying is that some have visited all 1,800 coffee shops in Metro Detroit, and Chicago is better because people can go to 2-3x more coffee shops before they exhaust their options? I see.. well.. yes, in that case, you do you, but I think it's safe to say that the average food enthusiast will be complacent with "only" 94 places to get a bubble tea and "only" 30 unique places to try different pokébowls. As much as I like to pretend I'm a coffee enthusiast, I've probably only been to 30 different coffee shops since moving here in 2015.

I know that National Geographic, Zagat, and I have low standards, but personally I think the food scene in Detroit is pretty good - even if seemingly 800 of those 1,800 coffee shops are Biggby
Of course I am not saying that anyone has visited all of any of those things... simply that Chicago has more to do. I was also attempting, maybe failing, to illustrate that Chicago has a lot more to do for certain segments of the market. The presence of a barcade, for example, probably says quite a lot about the area. The presence of 17 is, to misuse a term intentionally, virtue signalling. It won't come as a shock to anyone familiar with Chicago that most of them are in neighborhoods along the Brown Line... put another way, I don't expect to ever go to 30 different spots for poke let alone 280 but the presence of 280 poke restaurants in close proximity to each other tells me quite a bit about a place.

I don't mean to suggest the Metro Detroit food scene is bad or inferior or awful. It's great... that NatGeo article, in spite of a wonky understand of geography that places Dime Store in Corktown, is a good guide to some highlights. I am eagerly awaiting the re-opening of Flowers of Vietnam, my absolute favorite restaurant in the city and a must-do if you haven't been. Plus it is next door to the Mexicantown Bakery, so save room.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,749 posts, read 65,558,358 times
Reputation: 32915
All this really establishes is that Chicago has more people in it than Detroit. Roughly 300% more.

Thus, if Detroit has more than 33% of the number of a given type of place than Chicago, it actually has a higher density per capita.

However I agree with the premise but from a different perspective. It is not about bare numbers, but about sparse quality.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Chicago
934 posts, read 842,316 times
Reputation: 1095
Idk, I think it's kind of goalposts shifty to be like "Chicago doesn't have that many more things than Detroit" and then when presented with evidence to the contrary get all "well obviously" and "you could never do all of that anyway". That was never the point, it was only that there was more to do full stop by up to a factor of 10. But I digress. Back onto the topic at hand:

Best city for young singles: Ferndale... though rental options aren't plentiful, this is for sure the best place in the area for the youths to hang out.

Best city for young families: Tougher, but I will go ahead and say Clawson... younger parents have easy access to some nightlife, the city itself is small and quiet and still kinda sorta affordable. Pretty ideal situation.

Best city for older families: There are a lot of options here, but I am going to say Northville. Great schools, charming enough downtown. Easy freeway access. Has a lot going for it but the buy in is far too high and the area far too sedate for most under 35.

Best city for retirees: Hard for me to say, but somewhere on water... lets go with St. Claire Shores, it seems like it would be more affordable than some other lake-adjacent suburbs and good for those on a fixed income.

Most improved city since 2000: Detroit. And it's not even close. There is an energy to the place that is just infectious, a far cry from the days where the emptiness of the place was it's most defining feature.

Most improvable, promising city going forward: Going to go outside the box and say Ypsilanti. Ypsi has really incredible bones, being a genuine college town and the housing stock is pretty uniformly beautiful. It's also blessed with a very favorable location next to Ann Arbor but also more closely connected to Metro Detroit. There's a lot of gentrification going on currently due to priced out artsy types from A2, but it is likely to also benefit from a middle class boom as house prices in Ann Arbor spiral, plus it offers a more urbanized alternative to it's eastern neighbors in Canton. Runner up is Wyandotte, but that will get...

Most desirable "Affordable" city: Wyandotte . The poor man's Ferndale, with the river. The only issue is Downriver stereotypes (some of them are true!) dying hard. Otherwise, come enjoy a 2000 sq ft Tudor house that can be yours for under $150k with a short commute to Detroit and Dearborn!

Most Down-to-Earth "high-income" city: Let's go with Plymouth here. There is a lot of money in the city, but it's also pretty friendly and down to earth. People come from all of the surrounding communities to hang out and there doesn't seem to be any issue with kids from Wayne-Westland schools getting prom pictures taken downtown, etc.

Best inner-ring suburb: Going to go with Dearborn. This would be a runner up to Ferndale, but the rules stipulate that I cannot use it again. Dearborn has a lot going on, it's only really missing a walkable downtown but Ford seems committed to working on that. Great food, great culture, pretty houses, affordable houses, legit mansions. Something for everyone.

Best outer-ring suburb: This is less my style, but I will say West Bloomfield. Close to pretty much everything, some very nice houses and lakes!

Best exurb: Ann Arbor, we have talked it to death.

Overall, best place to live in the entire metro: Either Ann Arbor or, in a shocker since it didn't make any of my individual lists, Grosse Pointe.
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,799,933 times
Reputation: 2624
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I have plenty of positive things to say about Detroit, dude. Not that I ought to risk doxing myself here, but this is my Facebook background picture:



I mostly respond to the tone of things, I have no issue with the city of Detroit and am beyond glad to see it's resurgence. I often trek down there on weekends to ride along the Dequindre Cut, I volunteer all over the city through my job, I take improv classes in Hamtramck. I love Detroit. The majority of my posts here are attempting to strike a realistic balance between the boosterism of some and the dumb anti-Detroit suburbanite **** of others. I am not prepared to tell people from out of town to move to different parts of the city because I know that people from other parts of the country likely aren't expecting what they will get with Detroit, which could poison their entire experience. I also tend to defend Ann Arbor, because this has been my home for most of my adult life and it is a bit of a target on many Detroit area forums (so is Grand Rapids at times). I often call out Ann Arborites for their provincialism.

As to the 5-10x number, it was not pulled from my ass. As I said, you can think of anything you want and look into it. I'll give you some examples of things I am interested in using Yelp results (Yelp gives the tri-county area for Detroit and only Chicago city for Chicago):

653 Chinese restaurants in Metro Detroit vs 1500 in Chicago (between 2-3 times)
362 record stores in Metro Detroit vs 1356 in Chicago (between 4-5 times)
1800 coffee shops in Metro Detroit vs 4500 in Chicago (between 2-3 times)
30 results for poke bowls in Metro Detroit vs 280 in Chicago (between 9-10 times)
94 results for bubble tea in Metro Detroit vs 436 in Chicago (between 4-5 times)
2 barcades in Metro Detroit vs 17 in Chicago (between 8-9 times)

Like I say, this is personalized for me and reflects things I like (namely Asian food and hipstery pastimes)... on all but the most general levels (Chinese food and coffee shops), Chicago is offering me at least 4 times as much as Metro Detroit. I would guess, just using simple demography, that the average Ann Arbor person is probably more aligned with me in terms of interests, too. Why not NYC? New York is both pricier and too far to drive to for an overnight trip. As for why Chicago is a personal preference for me, it relates to a sense of Midwestern pride, general affordability and family/friend connections.

I really enjoy MS313's perspectives in particular because they are often coming from a POV that I'm unfamiliar with (specifically, an African American perspective) and offer a lot of insight into what people from different communities are interested in. We all have our own perspectives to contribute, which is something I appreciate about this forum, I do often find that most here do not have the same interests, etc as me and that is fine... the world needs people who love shopping malls and chain restaurants as much as it needs people who like farmers markets and Trinidadian curries. I would also like to do my part to get this thread back on topic so will be doing the form from the OP in a little bit as my work schedule allows.
That's fair from a hipstery standpoint. In that case I sort of understand where your coming from. But your post kind of just proved what we were talking about as far as having so many different places to go right next door. Why drive 4 hours all the time to see Chicago's Chinese restaurants and bubble tea shops when you haven't seen all 653 Chinese spots and 94 bubble tea spots in Detroit within such closer proximity to Ann Arbor?

Now if you don't want to DRIVE to or around either place then well yea, Chicago is the clear choice for you.

And don't get me wrong, I think most of us here appreciate your post as well. Especially for people sort of unfamiliar with the Ann Arbor area and actual hipster POV's. The city imo should listen to people like you to see what it needs to work on.

Quote:
Idk, I think it's kind of goalposts shifty to be like "Chicago doesn't have that many more things than Detroit" and then when presented with evidence to the contrary get all "well obviously" and "you could never do all of that anyway". That was never the point, it was only that there was more to do full stop by up to a factor of 10. But I digress.
To be fair we didn't know you meant specific things like bubble tea and poke bowls. But I also did say in my earlier post that Chicago is alot bigger especially in the city so naturally it will have more things in a closer proximity but it's basically the same things, just more of it. Which is what I was getting at with the NYC and Chicago comparison.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,749 posts, read 65,558,358 times
Reputation: 32915
I had to go look up bubble tea and Poke - Ick and ick. Once again ecstatic that I am not a hipster. We are not really missing anything with a shortage of these places. Whatever happened to Pho? That was such a huge hipster trend out west, but it did not seem to have ever reached Detroit. Or did it?

I would trade all the Pho, Buble tea and raw fish salad in the country for a good steak or Cannelloni, or maybe a great slab of fish. I guess I am outdated.
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Old 06-26-2017, 02:43 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,291,983 times
Reputation: 1864
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I also tend to defend Ann Arbor, because this has been my home for most of my adult life and it is a bit of a target on many Detroit area forums (so is Grand Rapids at times). I often call out Ann Arborites for their provincialism.

As to the 5-10x number, it was not pulled from my ass. As I said, you can think of anything you want and look into it. I'll give you some examples of things I am interested in using Yelp results (Yelp gives the tri-county area for Detroit and only Chicago city for Chicago):

653 Chinese restaurants in Metro Detroit vs 1500 in Chicago (between 2-3 times)
362 record stores in Metro Detroit vs 1356 in Chicago (between 4-5 times)
1800 coffee shops in Metro Detroit vs 4500 in Chicago (between 2-3 times)
30 results for poke bowls in Metro Detroit vs 280 in Chicago (between 9-10 times)
94 results for bubble tea in Metro Detroit vs 436 in Chicago (between 4-5 times)
2 barcades in Metro Detroit vs 17 in Chicago (between 8-9 times)

Like I say, this is personalized for me and reflects things I like (namely Asian food and hipstery pastimes)... on all but the most general levels (Chinese food and coffee shops), Chicago is offering me at least 4 times as much as Metro Detroit. I would guess, just using simple demography, that the average Ann Arbor person is probably more aligned with me in terms of interests, too. Why not NYC? New York is both pricier and too far to drive to for an overnight trip. As for why Chicago is a personal preference for me, it relates to a sense of Midwestern pride, general affordability and family/friend connections.
I wonder if that Yelp list included Windsor. I know it can sometimes be a pain to cross the border, and you will have to pay $10 in round-trip border crossing fees, but there are a plethora of Asian restaurants in that small city, and there is a sizeable concentration of them along West Wyandotte Avenue near the University of Windsor. I see you are a one foot out the door, but you before you leave, you should check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post

Best city for young singles: Ferndale... though rental options aren't plentiful, this is for sure the best place in the area for the youths to hang out.

Best inner-ring suburb: Going to go with Dearborn. This would be a runner up to Ferndale, but the rules stipulate that I cannot use it again. Dearborn has a lot going on, it's only really missing a walkable downtown but Ford seems committed to working on that. Great food, great culture, pretty houses, affordable houses, legit mansions. Something for everyone.
Just curious, in your opinion, why do you perceive Ferndale as the best place for young adults to hang out as opposed to Royal Oak or Detroit.

Dearborn actually has 2 downtowns. It's just that Downtown East Dearborn is in the middle of a Middle Eastern neighborhood and is not a trendy place. Also Dearborn's Warren Avenue is somewhat walkable with a decently intact streetwall that is chock full of Middle Eastern restaurants, bakeries, and other businesses catering to that community.
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,799,933 times
Reputation: 2624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I had to go look up bubble tea and Poke - Ick and ick. Once again ecstatic that I am not a hipster. We are not really missing anything with a shortage of these places. Whatever happened to Pho? That was such a huge hipster trend out west, but it did not seem to have ever reached Detroit. Or did it?

I would trade all the Pho, Buble tea and raw fish salad in the country for a good steak or Cannelloni, or maybe a great slab of fish. I guess I am outdated.
Lol I had to look up what bubble tea and poke were too. BTW I think the count was too low for bar arcades though. Even Dave and Busters should be counted in that list by definition. And then Punch Bowl Social and the other new one in Greektown. Checker Bar, High Score Lounge, Lucky Strikes, ect. I think it's one in Hamtramck too. There's at least 6 or 7 bar arcades that I know of.

Last edited by MS313; 06-26-2017 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Chicago
934 posts, read 842,316 times
Reputation: 1095
There are pho places around, Detroit just does not have a big Asian population to sustain the kind of scenes that crop up in bigger metro areas... there is no need for ramen wars here, people either go to Tomukun in Ann Arbor or Johnny noodle king in Detroit and that is where the market is. Upscale pho is covered by Katoi and Flowers of Vietnam... bubble tea has become pretty ubiquitous because it's basically a frappuccino. The number of places serving it or dedicated to it in Metro Detroit has grown exponentially within the past year. There was a time when a search for bubble tea in this metro area only brought up one result in Novi and then a bunch in Windsor.

But I digress because the point I was trying to make isn't really about those specific items. Those are currently envogue hipster things, but they will eventually be replaced and the larger point I was trying to illustrate is that when they are Chicago will suddenly have 30 restaurants serving the new thing before Metro Detroit has one. And if you're the stereotypical UM student from California or New Jersey, that is probably appealing and explains the Amtrak traffic.
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