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Old 06-05-2017, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
6,545 posts, read 3,546,455 times
Reputation: 8035

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I think the challenge for Detroiters is in creating a metro area where your children do not have to move away. Aside from a poor economy, many older people in SE Michigan created the type of polarization between city and suburbs, which was really a divide between black and white, that essentially destroyed the vibrancy of the city which in turn led to many of their children and grand children having to move from the area in search of such urban vibrancy.

Beliefs, attitudes and actions all have consequences. Although such polarization is simply a microcosm of America's past, the fact that it manifested between city and suburb, and not between the North and South/West sides like in Chicago , is really what makes Detroit polarization unique for an area so large. Detroit preferred inter-city racial separation to intra-city racial separation. If the polarization became East side vs West side, with blacks dominating the east side and whites on the west.....Detroit would be a much more vibrant city and probably still have close to a million people today.

It's unfortunate but the definition of "vibrancy" is color coded. The vast majority of the Vibrant Walk-able cities are either majority white or dense older cities in the Northeast with large white populations. Its a rare find indeed to find an area that does not have many whites described as "vibrant and walk able". Such places are usually seen as undesirable unless they are being gentrified (the process of making it white).

Unless you are a person with their head stuck in the sand......Detroit's comeback is as racially influenced as its decline, which really is a bad sign given that much of the Detroit areas problem is rooted in such racial imbalances.
Well said, IS!
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,935,257 times
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All I can really say is that if you believe Detroit lacks this, it sounds as though you have not visited Detroit recently. I don't know how many times I can state this before it loses meaning, but Detroit of 2013 is not Detroit of 2017, at least not at the city center. In the neighborhoods? Yeah, some of the neighborhoods are still downright scary, but if you believe the metro lacks "a mix of highly desirable residential neighborhoods (B-Ham/Bloomfields, GPs, SE Oakland-burbs, Western-burbs), central business districts (Downtown, Southfield, Troy, Dearborn), and diverse centers of entertainment and leisure that every day/night bring together hundreds of thousands of people of all socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds from the entire Metro area (Downtown/Midtown/Corktown)" - then you need to stop by again, because you pretty much just described Metro Detroit.

Regarding public transit, according to FiveThirtyEight, Detroit isn't great - it averages 11.3 rides per capita, but this is better than Nashville which averages 9.9 rides per capita. Montreal (224) and Toronto (181) compare to NYC (194), but please don't go acting like Nashville belongs in this discussion when it comes to public transit, because it doesn't even live up to the admittedly sub-par standards set by Detroit.

But you're right on one thing - Detroit isn't just like any other city in the country. It's grungy, it is resilient, it has.. "seen things..", but despite that it persists as one of the most important metros in the nation. This is probably why I like it so much.
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Chicago
939 posts, read 845,578 times
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I don't want to speak for Newdixiegirl, but I think when she listed off those attributes she meant within the city itself. So, to use Toronto as an example as I also briefly lived there, somewhere like Lawrence Park North is residential, Downtown/Midtown/North York are CBDs, Trinity-Bellwoods/Kensington Market/Dundas Square are entertainment centers. That's all one municipality.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
6,545 posts, read 3,546,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I don't want to speak for Newdixiegirl, but I think when she listed off those attributes she meant within the city itself. So, to use Toronto as an example as I also briefly lived there, somewhere like Lawrence Park North is residential, Downtown/Midtown/North York are CBDs, Trinity-Bellwoods/Kensington Market/Dundas Square are entertainment centers. That's all one municipality.
Yes. I'm talking about the cities proper.
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Old 06-05-2017, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,935,257 times
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Ah, but I thought we were literally just saying that the urban/suburban divide was undesirable? But yes, move the goalposts when observation doesn't fit your predefined narrative
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
6,545 posts, read 3,546,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Ah, but I thought we were literally just saying that the urban/suburban divide was undesirable? But yes, move the goalposts when observation doesn't fit your predefined narrative
Whaa?

I lived in Metro Detroit for years. This is a public forum. There is a thread in the Detroit sub-forum entitled "Likes and Dislikes about Metro Detroit." I posted my thoughts, some in response to what others have said. The end. So, what predefined "narrative" (a ridiculously overused word these days) is it that I'm telling? Maybe YOU'RE the one sticking to this predefined narrative you speak of.

The suburban/urban divide is, as other posters have pointed out, due, in large part, I suppose, to the conditions in the city of Detroit which people in the suburbs want to avoid. In other metros I've lived in, the cities are desirable places that people want to live in and hang out in. Therefore, there is a stronger relationship, more cohesion, between the city and the suburbs. Really. I'm not making this up.

It seems you simply don't like hearing other points of view, especially if they don't align with your opinions. Gosh, people say negative things about my hometown of Toronto - and Montréal and Nashville (all cities I'm fond of) - in real life and online, all the time. Doesn't bother me, as long as they have an idea of what they're talking about. And I think that if a person has lived in Toronto for a reasonable length of time and has experienced it first-hand, then that person has an informed opinion. I say that person is perfectly entitled to express that opinion. Who the heck would I be to accuse them of having a "predefined narrative"? Why on earth would I feel the need to even say that? They feel what they feel.

I really ENJOY hearing other people's opinions and ideas about places I've lived in, even if I don't agree with those opinions. I like hearing other people's ideas about anything, really. That might be why I participate on a PUBLIC forum like City Data.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:00 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,297,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
The Detroit suburbs developed a separation from Detroit over decades for many reasons.

1. Detroit separated itself. Especially in the Coleman Young days, but it continued up to the recent turnover of the council and mayor. Detroit had the attitude it wanted nothing to to do with the suburbs. "This is our City, you stay out" was regularly conveyed. Not sure whether this came from the suburb separation or because of it, but it certainly created a division and barrier.

2. Detroit was not anywhere anyone wanted to go. You went into the City only when necessary (usually for sports events) and got out as quickly as you could. When I went to WSU in the 1980s, it was pretty bad, but it got worse later. When I started working downtown in 2008, I had several people tell me that I should wear a body bag to work and save the coroner some time. Everyone seemed to have a story about being robbed, shot at, or hearing shots, seeing a robbery, finding glass all over downtown from cars being broken into. Much of it was water cooler gossip and urban legend, but some was accurate.

3. The media jumped on the bandwagon and exaggerated whatever they could find. How horrible Detroit is became one of the favorite national topics.


There was reason for the gossip and negative attention. When I started working downtown, it was pretty empty most of the time except extremely aggressive mentally imbalanced begging people. There really was glass all over the streets some mornings from cars being broken into at night. Every bit of metal someone could find a way to steal was stolen. Manhole covers disappeared, houses were stripped of copper and other metals, in one instance a building was fenced in, and someone stole the fence and dragged it to a scrap place a few miles away. They found dead bodies in various abandoned buildings, a head and hands were found in a shallow spot in the Detroit River. It was not rampant, but there were at least weekly reports and every one was sensationalized in the media.
To your point #1
Please don't paint the racism as one way. Black people were not welcome in the suburbs. I already explained to you that Detroit's white population fell by 94% from 1950 to 2000. It became a black city, because all the white people left, not because blacks kicked you'll out. Up until 2000, 80% of the metro's black population lived in the city, and if you exclude the historically black suburban enclaves of Inkster, Pontiac, and Highland Park, the lack of black folk in the suburbs was striking.

To your point #2
In 2000, 775,000 African-Americans lived in Detroit. It was not a "no-go" zone for us. We make up 20-25% of the metro population. Black folks went to the malls and the movies in the suburbs, but other than that, we hung out in the city. All of the black nightlife and black restaurants were in the city. You can't speak for all metro ethnic groups.

To your point #3
Considering the abandonment of Detroit, and it having the highest violent crime rate in the nation for many decades now, your experiences are not unusual, and none were all that bad, besides the security guard getting shot in the eye (now that was horrible).
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:56 PM
 
292 posts, read 204,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
To your point #1
Please don't paint the racism as one way. Black people were not welcome in the suburbs. I already explained to you that Detroit's white population fell by 94% from 1950 to 2000. It became a black city, because all the white people left, not because blacks kicked you'll out. Up until 2000, 80% of the metro's black population lived in the city, and if you exclude the historically black suburban enclaves of Inkster, Pontiac, and Highland Park, the lack of black folk in the suburbs was striking.

To your point #2
In 2000, 775,000 African-Americans lived in Detroit. It was not a "no-go" zone for us. We make up 20-25% of the metro population. Black folks went to the malls and the movies in the suburbs, but other than that, we hung out in the city. All of the black nightlife and black restaurants were in the city. You can't speak for all metro ethnic groups.

To your point #3
Considering the abandonment of Detroit, and it having the highest violent crime rate in the nation for many decades now, your experiences are not unusual, and none were all that bad, besides the security guard getting shot in the eye (now that was horrible).

Why are you surprised about what he says in line 2, you know to him AA don't count He comes from an all white environment and he chose to live in the whitest environment when he relocated here, that is not a coincidence. But what is most incredible he comes on here and acts as though he is a expert on everything African American in a city that is still 75% African American, quite a few with nice homes and nice neighborhoods just like where he lives/ imagine that. I guess he didn't hear Mike Duggan's much needed views on the subject last week
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,807,839 times
Reputation: 2624
Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Do they all have thriving, relatively safe, attractive, dynamic city cores? Detroit does. Do all these cities contain a mix of highly desirable residential neighborhoods, central business districts, and diverse centers of entertainment and leisure that every day/night bring together hundreds of thousands of people of all socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds from the entire Metro area? Detroit does. Are all they all walkable and rideable? Do they all make efforts to accommodate pedestrians and cyclists? CBD in Detroit? yes. Do they all have reliable intermodal public transit, from morning until evening, that carries residents, tourists, and commuters throughout the downtown cores and perhaps back to the suburbs and neighboring cities? Even though I'm with you on public transit, I'm not going to pretend like buses don't run 24/7 all over the city especially to and from downtown. In downtown Detroit (area) you have DDOT, SMART, the new RTA, the people mover, and now the Q Line. But no you can't use public transit in most suburbs in the middle of the night.
Can't speak for the other 3 cities but my response for Detroit is in blue.

Quote:
I mean, the topic is dislikes and likes about Metro Detroit. I feel like it's gone more in depth than discussing the lack of certain chains, and it's nice to have a critique of the area that ISN'T coming from a "city of Detroit is scary, don't go to Eastern Market because someone died there in 1977!" perspective.

Regarding Chicago and NYC, for as much as Chicago is everyone in Michigan's go-to idea of a big city it is still a Midwestern city and is, as such, far more affordable than the large coastal metros. One can easily find a periodic one bedroom for $1100 a month in Lincoln Park, a cursory search in Brooklyn revealed nothing but actual rooms for rent in larger apartments at that price. It's a value. At that price point, the increase from Ann Arbor would be ~$100 for infinitely more things. No brainer, tbh.
That makes since. I thought Chicago was more expensive than that.
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:02 AM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,297,759 times
Reputation: 1864
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I actually sincerely appreciate this as advice, because much of the time (and in a lot of places on the internet) all anyone wants to do is upsell you on downtown Detroit, which I know isn't what I'm looking for. It sucks to consider leaving but I do intend to come back someday.
But the core of Detroit, that part of the city that is seeing new residents, development, and amenities, is more than just downtown. You have:

-Downtown
-Midtown
-Corktown
-Mexicantown
-East Riverfront
-Eastern Market - new restaurant just opened; new boutique just opened; mixed-use project announced last year
-New Center
-Milwaukee-Junction
-the Eastside "Villages"
-the North End (has the least potential for redevelopment)
-Hamtramck

5 years from now, if the economy remains stable, all of these places are going to be booming with dense development. Plus, for urban recreation, you have the continued conversion of the riverfront to parkland, and the restoration of Belle Isle.

THEN, if you get tired of those, you can occasionally go across the river to Windsor, which despite Geo-Aggie's opinion, has a fair amount going on, and has pretty good cuisine that's a reflection of its diversity.

THEN, there are some outer neighborhoods turning around and have great potential: Palmer Park, 7 Mile/Livernois (new sushi restaurant just announced), the Packard Plant, Jefferson-Chalmers, Old Redford (Senegalese restaurant opened in March)

THEN you have close-in suburban downtowns like Ferndale, Royal Oak, West Dearborn, Grosse Pointes; Hazel Park's John R strip is even seeing some development - like this.

So there are a good amount of urban options. The problem is that none of these are connected by rapid transit.
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