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Old 06-06-2017, 05:12 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 24,781,790 times
Reputation: 7812

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
The Detroit suburbs developed a separation from Detroit over decades for many reasons.

1. Detroit separated itself. Especially in the Coleman Young days, but it continued up to the recent turnover of the council and mayor. Detroit had the attitude it wanted nothing to to do with the suburbs. "This is our City, you stay out" was regularly conveyed. Not sure whether this came from the suburb separation or because of it, but it certainly created a division and barrier.
I can say with certainty, this is (was) true. My wife was told this numerous times when she was at Wayne State. She always heard, come on out, spend the money but go home to the burbs because we do not want you here..and yet we stayed and even moved to 4th street for a few years..
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,933,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Whaa?

I lived in Metro Detroit for years. This is a public forum. There is a thread in the Detroit sub-forum entitled "Likes and Dislikes about Metro Detroit." I posted my thoughts, some in response to what others have said. The end. So, what predefined "narrative" (a ridiculously overused word these days) is it that I'm telling? Maybe YOU'RE the one sticking to this predefined narrative you speak of.

The suburban/urban divide is, as other posters have pointed out, due, in large part, I suppose, to the conditions in the city of Detroit which people in the suburbs want to avoid. In other metros I've lived in, the cities are desirable places that people want to live in and hang out in. Therefore, there is a stronger relationship, more cohesion, between the city and the suburbs. Really. I'm not making this up.

It seems you simply don't like hearing other points of view, especially if they don't align with your opinions. Gosh, people say negative things about my hometown of Toronto - and Montréal and Nashville (all cities I'm fond of) - in real life and online, all the time. Doesn't bother me, as long as they have an idea of what they're talking about. And I think that if a person has lived in Toronto for a reasonable length of time and has experienced it first-hand, then that person has an informed opinion. I say that person is perfectly entitled to express that opinion. Who the heck would I be to accuse them of having a "predefined narrative"? Why on earth would I feel the need to even say that? They feel what they feel.

I really ENJOY hearing other people's opinions and ideas about places I've lived in, even if I don't agree with those opinions. I like hearing other people's ideas about anything, really. That might be why I participate on a PUBLIC forum like City Data.
Yes. We discussed the urban/suburban divide as a bad thing (and it does exist, I'm not debating that, but it's not what it once was), but then when I use suburbs as examples of great places within Metro Detroit, you're going to dismiss it because it's not in the city proper? That doesn't seem like a very good way of smoothing over the urban/suburban divide. Also, don't make the mistake of assuming this isn't already going away. I frequently run into Detroiters in Royal Oak and I frequently spend time in Detroit. My friends from Royal Oak recently bought a house in Bagley, and my neighbors across the street are from the Rosedale area. If anyone from outside of Detroit (or a Detroit forum) asks where I live, I tell them Detroit - because that's what I claim as home, even if my address is closer to 12 Mile. Yes, these are all anecdotes, but ask around to anyone living in Detroit today, you'll hear a lot more of this than you would have 10 years ago. Then you try to call out the things which Detroit lacks, but.. .. it doesn't.. lack those things. At least not from my perspective, and apparently MS313 is a little more aggressive and believes Detroit has most of those things within the city limits alone. Regardless of whether or not you draw your invisible wall at 8 Mile (which I thought we were trying NOT to do) it's been demonstrated that Metro Detroit isn't nearly as lacking as you believe it is, yet you persist in your belief. Which is fine, it's your belief - believe what you want, but understand that for those living here in 2017, your belief feels broken.

Please don't tell me I'm unwilling to hear your point of view simply because I'm critical of it. You're welcome to express your opinion, but when it's weak, expect feedback - like you said, "this is a public forum". I think it's great that you lived in Detroit for 14 years and still maintain enough interest in the area to come chat about it on a discussion board, but if I may ask - when were those 14 years? Based on my interpretation of your posts they don't sound recent.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:44 AM
 
12,525 posts, read 7,603,124 times
Reputation: 4759
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I can say with certainty, this is (was) true. My wife was told this numerous times when she was at Wayne State. She always heard, come on out, spend the money but go home to the burbs because we do not want you here..and yet we stayed and even moved to 4th street for a few years..

A lot of white people do not want to accept facts about the racial divide in America. The new revised story seems to be that blacks and whites were co responsible for the racial divide. That is not true. The racial divide was almost totally created by whites (of course...not all whites). All one has to do is look at the history of this country as all that black people ever sought was freedom, equality and to be treated with dignity and respect. Ever since African slaves arrived in America, we interacted with whites and lived near whites even as the enslaved living near their masters. It was blacks who wanted integration and it was blacks who integrated.....and whites who willfully vacated as a reaction. It was whites who saw blacks as inferior and who feared for their daughters around black boys and men (hard to believe that was not so long ago....and still some do).

Every action creates a REACTION. The action of white society to reject blacks triggered the "well F__ you" reaction from blacks. Blacks only reacted to being rejected and looked down upon. If you don't want to be around us then we did not want to be around you. If you did not want us in your neighborhoods then we did not want you in ours. You can't punch me in the face, unprovoked, and say that I am equally responsible because I responded negatively to you for being punched. The primary reason a white person would have an issue in a black environment was born from how whites treated blacks in white environments...or in general. I am not talking about now, but the era up through the 70's and eighties.

Today, most whites can go into most black communities that I know of for the simple fact that now whites allow blacks to go into most white communities that I know of. That does not mean that there are not still a legacy of people being uncomfortable with that, but most people give you a pass.

In short, if white people were made to feel unwanted in majority black Detroit, that is ONLY because whites made blacks feel unwanted by leaving Detroit and not making blacks feel comfortable in the suburbs. This was all taking place in the context of a country with a long history of white rejection and discrimination against blacks. I mean....think about it. Detroit was once at least 90% white. It could not have gotten to 85% black without blacks showing the will and desire to live among whites and whites showing the will and desire to not live around blacks. It was hardly the fault of both sides equally. Americans today have trouble accepting this. The black condition was and is largely a REACTION trigger by white societies historical ACTIONS.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Chicago
939 posts, read 844,314 times
Reputation: 1102
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I can say with certainty, this is (was) true. My wife was told this numerous times when she was at Wayne State. She always heard, come on out, spend the money but go home to the burbs because we do not want you here..and yet we stayed and even moved to 4th street for a few years..
I've been told this multiple times by people in neighborhoods while volunteering for work... most recently a few months ago a man at a senior center told me to "**** off back over 8 Mile" and then told another resident that he might be forced to "go back to Africa if these people keep coming in here".

It is deeply unpleasant, but as USRoute and IS said this was and is a two way street. Why wouldn't you feel hostile when L. Brooks Patterson says the **** he says? I remember seeing posters calling the Livonia Planning Commission Nazis in the mid-2000s over a highly race sensitive fight about where to build a Wal-Mart.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,109 posts, read 1,350,884 times
Reputation: 2905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
A lot of white people do not want to accept facts about the racial divide in America. The new revised story seems to be that blacks and whites were co responsible for the racial divide. That is not true. The racial divide was almost totally created by whites (of course...not all whites). All one has to do is look at the history of this country as all that black people ever sought was freedom, equality and to be treated with dignity and respect. Ever since African slaves arrived in America, we interacted with whites and lived near whites even as the enslaved living near their masters. It was blacks who wanted integration and it was blacks who integrated.....and whites who willfully vacated as a reaction. It was whites who saw blacks as inferior and who feared for their daughters around black boys and men (hard to believe that was not so long ago....and still some do).

Every action creates a REACTION. The action of white society to reject blacks triggered the "well F__ you" reaction from blacks. Blacks only reacted to being rejected and looked down upon. If you don't want to be around us then we did not want to be around you. If you did not want us in your neighborhoods then we did not want you in ours. You can't punch me in the face, unprovoked, and say that I am equally responsible because I responded negatively to you for being punched. The primary reason a white person would have an issue in a black environment was born from how whites treated blacks in white environments...or in general. I am not talking about now, but the era up through the 70's and eighties.

Today, most whites can go into most black communities that I know of for the simple fact that now whites allow blacks to go into most white communities that I know of. That does not mean that there are not still a legacy of people being uncomfortable with that, but most people give you a pass.

In short, if white people were made to feel unwanted in majority black Detroit, that is ONLY because whites made blacks feel unwanted by leaving Detroit and not making blacks feel comfortable in the suburbs. This was all taking place in the context of a country with a long history of white rejection and discrimination against blacks. I mean....think about it. Detroit was once at least 90% white. It could not have gotten to 85% black without blacks showing the will and desire to live among whites and whites showing the will and desire to not live around blacks. It was hardly the fault of both sides equally. Americans today have trouble accepting this. The black condition was and is largely a REACTION trigger by white societies historical ACTIONS.
Thanks for the post. It is very thought provoking.
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Old 06-07-2017, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,762 posts, read 65,614,818 times
Reputation: 32943
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I I remember seeing posters calling the Livonia Planning Commission Nazis in the mid-2000s over a highly race sensitive fight about where to build a Wal-Mart.
Yes, but do you now what actually happened? Or are you just relating urban legend?
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:35 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 24,781,790 times
Reputation: 7812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Yes, but do you now what actually happened? Or are you just relating urban legend?
It is pretty clear the majority of Livonia's administration share similar beliefs with Orville Hubbard of Dearborn...
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Chicago
939 posts, read 844,314 times
Reputation: 1102
I definitely remember what actually happened in Livonia, the sad thing is the only websites I can find discussing it that contain links are white supremacist websites praising Livonia and I'm not about to corrupt my computer by going on to stormfront.org in order to prove this story to anybody.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,762 posts, read 65,614,818 times
Reputation: 32943
Center of controversy: Racial remarks prompt some Livonia biz owners to speak out - Crain's Detroit Business

Wal-Mart proposal OK’d by Livonia Planning Commission at contentious hearing; City Council must still approve - Crain's Detroit Business

In a nutshell various residents opposed the Walmart for various reasons. A few (I think it was actually two people) raised racist concerns saying people would come there from Detroit and then steal things. The media went crazy painting the entire city as a Nazi haven. The planning commission said to stop making racist comments and then approved the project.

Even Crains is playing the sensationalizing game in the second article. It says 4000 residents signed a petition opposing the Walmart. Then it adds 'Residents have said they are concerned about the potential for increased crime as the new center draws shoppers from Detroit." Makes it look like 4000 residents took that position, not two. However there were many reasons people did not want Walmart there (noise, traffic light, pressure on other businesses, we just hate Walmart etc). I grew up a few blocks from there (until I was 8) If I still lived there I would have signed the petition, but not over some silly concern about people coming from Detroit. I just hate Walmart and everything it stands for and especially would not want one in that location. It is a fairly peaceful area with homes all around the location (or there used to be). No one wants the added traffic pressures etc. They wanted it to be a 24 hour store. That would be especially offensive to local residents. The 24 hour part was not approved.

Any big store like that or a mall will bring increased crime. Big retail brings crowds and crowds mixed with retail bring more crime, but only at the retail location. It has nothing to do with Detroit or racism. People steal things at malls - period. They shoplift, steal things from cars, grab bags and run, employees smuggle merchandise out the back door. All that gets reported as crime. That is why you cannot rely on crime statistics for towns with a mall or a Walmart for that matter. Big retail skews crime stats for a town in ways that have little or no impact on the typical resident other than real estate values.

Later articles indicate this Walmart did in fact bring a lot of crime. That should hardly be a surprise. Big retail does that. Big cheap retail seems to do that more than someplace like say Somerset, but they have plenty of crime there too.

Last edited by Coldjensens; 06-08-2017 at 09:14 AM..
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:51 AM
 
12,525 posts, read 7,603,124 times
Reputation: 4759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Center of controversy: Racial remarks prompt some Livonia biz owners to speak out - Crain's Detroit Business

Wal-Mart proposal OK’d by Livonia Planning Commission at contentious hearing; City Council must still approve - Crain's Detroit Business

In a nutshell various residents opposed the Walmart for various reasons. A few (I think it was actually two people) raised racist concerns saying people would come there from Detroit and then steal things. The media went crazy painting the entire city as a Nazi haven. The planning commission said to stop making racist comments and then approved the project.

Even Crains is playing the sensationalizing game in the second article. It says 4000 residents signed a petition opposing the Walmart. Then it adds 'Residents have said they are concerned about the potential for increased crime as the new center draws shoppers from Detroit." Makes it look like 4000 residents took that position, not two. However there were many reasons people did not want Walmart there (noise, traffic light, pressure on other businesses, we just hate Walmart etc). I grew up a few blocks from there (until I was 8) If I still lived there I would have signed the petition, but not over some silly concern about people coming from Detroit. I just hate Walmart and everything it stands for and especially would not want one in that location. It is a fairly peaceful area with homes all around the location (or there used to be). No one wants the added traffic pressures etc. They wanted it to be a 24 hour store. That would be especially offensive to local residents. The 24 hour part was not approved.

Any big store like that or a mall will bring increased crime. Big retail brings crowds and crowds mixed with retail bring more crime, but only at the retail location. It has nothing to do with Detroit or racism. People steal things at malls - period. They shoplift, steal things from cars, grab bags and run, employees smuggle merchandise out the back door. All that gets reported as crime. That is why you cannot rely on crime statistics for towns with a mall or a Walmart for that matter. Big retail skews crime stats for a town in ways that have little or no impact on the typical resident other than real estate values.

Later articles indicate this Walmart did in fact bring a lot of crime. That should hardly be a surprise. Big retail does that. Big cheap retail seems to do that more than someplace like say Somerset, but they have plenty of crime there too.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Although I would not suggest that 4000 people who signed the petition all thought like the 2 that vocalized their beliefs, I would suggest that exponentially more than the two had such thoughts as well. Some people do not care what others may think of them and will just say what they feel. However, most people are reluctant to say what they feel if it shines a negative light on them. It's kind of like a room full of people being explained or taught something and then the instructor asks "does everyone understand"? Not everyone who does not understand will vocally say they do not understand. In fact, I would say that the majority who did not understand, would not say that did not.

What goes on in peoples heads is not always or even mostly reflected by what comes out of their mouths. There is a filtering process that prepares thought for public consumption...or to not share the thoughts at all. That said, I think it was a safe bet to suggest that WAAAAAYYYYYYY more than 2 of the 4000 shared such sentiments.
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