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Old 06-08-2017, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,567,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Although I would not suggest that 4000 people who signed the petition all thought like the 2 that vocalized their beliefs, I would suggest that exponentially more than the two had such thoughts as well. Some people do not care what others may think of them and will just say what they feel. However, most people are reluctant to say what they feel if it shines a negative light on them. It's kind of like a room full of people being explained or taught something and then the instructor asks "does everyone understand"? Not everyone who does not understand will vocally say they do not understand. In fact, I would say that the majority who did not understand, would not say that did not.

What goes on in peoples heads is not always or even mostly reflected by what comes out of their mouths. There is a filtering process that prepares thought for public consumption...or to not share the thoughts at all. That said, I think it was a safe bet to suggest that WAAAAAYYYYYYY more than 2 of the 4000 shared such sentiments.
So you suggest making an unsupported assumption of general bigotry and slander r the population as a whole and label the entire city racist (even though their planning department said to stop making racist comments and then approved the proejct).

Thus if two people show up with bigoted comments in your city on some issue you also happen to agree with for other reasons, I should also assume you are a bigot because you live there and it is safe to assume wayyyyy more bigots than two live in your city?

Interesting logic.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,463 times
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I think it's simple:

Racism exists. It existed in 1950. It exists in 2017. It'll exist in 2050. Racism is stupid, but it's a thing. I'm not racist, I assume you are not racist either IndenturedServant, so how about we give a giant middle-finger to racism as a whole and move beyond it. Oh, we'll still experience it, but I'd rather you and I identify as being on the "same team", a team of non-racists, while shunning the "other team" - that team of racists. That's better than me choosing a racist white person to be part of my "tribe" while you choose a racist black person to be part of your "tribe". If we're going to behave in tribalistic ways let's do it based on ideology rather than melanin production.

We're more like each other than we are racist people who look like us, no?
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:30 PM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,585,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
So you suggest making an unsupported assumption of general bigotry and slander r the population as a whole and label the entire city racist (even though their planning department said to stop making racist comments and then approved the proejct).

Thus if two people show up with bigoted comments in your city on some issue you also happen to agree with for other reasons, I should also assume you are a bigot because you live there and it is safe to assume wayyyyy more bigots than two live in your city?

Interesting logic.
My comment pertained to the 4000 only....not an entire city (although that 4000 could be a microcosm). My assumption is that even though only 2 of the 4000 expressed comments that could be construed as "racist", I believe of those 4000 (whites I assume) that more than 0.0005% of them are racist. WAY MORE! I would say that at the very, very least, 20% of whites are racist, with like at least 40% of those over 45 having such attitudes.

What people do not understand is that hate and animosity accompany only the extreme end of racism. I think only a very, very small percentage of whites have any hatred or animosity towards blacks. I would say 5% at the most. What racism is really rooted in is the assumption or belief of inferiority and that this inferiority is the root of blacks inferior socioeconomic status and behaviors. This belief is the sibling of the belief that blacks dominate certain sports because of genetics (and not working harder at than others). In other words, linking performance, outcomes and behaviors to race.

The thing is, racism has resulted in self fulfilling prophecy, over the centuries. As a result of the beliefs being self fulfilled....ergo....the actions born from racist beliefs manifested a reaction upon the black condition that manifest or is reflected by STATISTICS. People then look at the STATISTICS then rationalize beliefs about blacks based upon STATISTICS. Since statistics are seen as TRUTHS most people don't feel they are being racist when they base negative views about blacks as being rooted in data.....and not racism. Of course, such is logical, but when one dismisses the idea that the statistics are the result of the impact of racism....historically...that is what makes it a racist belief because if you are not linking those statistics to things external to blacks, then you are attributing it to the NATURE of blacks.

I get along with many of my white co-workers very well. However, many of them are racist. That comes from listening to their comments and reasoning on various topics.....and no.....I do not label them that just because I disagree with them. I label them as such due to the logic that if A = B and B = C....then A = C. In other words, I do not need a person to say that A is = to C when they are saying that A = B and B = C. If saying A = C is racism, I can and do label a person a racist if they say that A = B and B = C, even though they never explicitly say that A = C. That is the subterfuge of modern racism. It seeks expression without exposure. It attempts to cloak itself.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 06-08-2017 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:53 PM
 
171 posts, read 161,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
Just a special aside on this... it may come as a surprise to you, but people often want to live among their social and ideological peers. I could stereotype you as a guy who wants to live around a bunch of people who love V8 Hemi trucks and MAGA hats, think the Woodward Dream Cruise is the height of culture, and are legitimately worried about the decline of the shopping mall, but that wouldn't really be fair to you. I'm sure you're a decent person with your own interests and friends, etc. You like it here, it meets your needs, that is great!

But look at your surroundings. You're on a website surrounded by people with an interest, to some extent or another, in urbanism. For the urbanist, Metro Detroit fails to deliver what they want and need. I fully admit to being a bit of a hipster, it makes me sad that Chicago has four times as many Yelp listings for bubble tea and 10 times as many listings for poke as Metro Detroit. I don't expect others in this region to share my values, but the fact that so many people here seem so utterly baffled as to how anyone could value interesting, trendy food instead of cheap housing and decent schools is part of why I don't like it here.
Ok, so I have to ask... since you are always lamenting about the area why don't you move? Also, do you have children?
I am not from here and like many things considered "hipster" I suppose, but this is a good place to raise a family. I am guessing you don't have children because if you did you would be more aware of the many positive aspects of metro Detroit.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:45 PM
 
124 posts, read 108,160 times
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There is incredible food in the Detroit region, you must have bumped your head or something.
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Old 06-10-2017, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,567,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newengland17 View Post
There is incredible food in the Detroit region, you must have bumped your head or something.
There is. But by comparison to many other major metros, it is spread out and somewhat hard to find. There is not a lot at the "incredible" level. There are quite a few places that are very good, a few are excellent, but very few are incredible or awesome. In fact, I would have to ask my wife to help me think of one at that level because I cannot think of any just now. Also a lot of the "awesome" restaurants that pop up really aren't . I think that is because many people from here have not had awesome food so they do not know that merely good food is anything but top notch. A lack of really good restaurant food and service are one of the first things you notice when moving here from elsewhere. I might be in part the whole work ethic thing. There seem to be a lot of people for whom eating is just a matter of getting nutrients into your body in the most efficient way possible and getting back to work. While I am a lousy food snob, I definitely noticed that not that many people actually enjoy taking several hours to share a good meal together.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,800,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
There is. But by comparison to many other major metros, it is spread out and somewhat hard to find. There is not a lot at the "incredible" level. There are quite a few places that are very good, a few are excellent, but very few are incredible or awesome. In fact, I would have to ask my wife to help me think of one at that level because I cannot think of any just now. Also a lot of the "awesome" restaurants that pop up really aren't . I think that is because many people from here have not had awesome food so they do not know that merely good food is anything but top notch. A lack of really good restaurant food and service are one of the first things you notice when moving here from elsewhere. I might be in part the whole work ethic thing. There seem to be a lot of people for whom eating is just a matter of getting nutrients into your body in the most efficient way possible and getting back to work. While I am a lousy food snob, I definitely noticed that not that many people actually enjoy taking several hours to share a good meal together.
Idk about that. There's alot of people who lived out of state that love the food scene. I've seen Detroit restaurants on food channels, national rankings, ect where even the people who travel to eat food for a living are impressed. Even me I ate at highly talked about places in other cities like Harold's Chicken shack and Giordano's in Chicago, Rosco's Chicken and Waffles in LA, even New Orleans (can't remember the name of the places there). All of the locals there think those places are incredible (I do as well) but I can think of a couple of places that compare with those places. The only people I've seen kind of hard to impress were somewhat picky eaters from NYC or LA and of course organic food and vegetarian restaurant lovers. Of course with NYC and LA their regions are diversified so where you have everything, everywhere. In Detroit it's diverse but segregated so you have specific things in specific places (for example, the best mexican food is all in one place).

Last edited by MS313; 06-10-2017 at 12:09 PM..
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,567,547 times
Reputation: 32923
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
Idk about that. There's alot of people who lived out of state that love the food scene. I've seen Detroit restaurants on food channels, national rankings, ect where even the people who travel to eat food for a living are impressed. Even me I ate at highly talked about places in other cities like Harold's Chicken shack and Giordano's in Chicago, Rosco's Chicken and Waffles in LA, even New Orleans (can't remember the name of the places there). All of the locals there think those places are incredible (I do as well) but I can think of a couple of places that compare with those places. The only people I've seen kind of hard to impress were somewhat picky eaters from NYC or LA and of course organic food and vegetarian restaurant lovers. Of course with NYC and LA their regions are diversified so where you have everything, everywhere. In Detroit it's diverse but segregated so you have specific things in specific places (for example, the best mexican food is all in one place).
I did niot ssay thre are none, I only said they are few and far between. Maybe you are agreeing with me, it is not clear, One big difference for us, is if we wanted truely good Mexican, middle eastern, traditional American, Fresh Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Greek, Russian, Danish, - whatevver food , t was available within a few miles, we did not have to drive some special place 20 - 30nmiles away

Many kinds of food, we still have not found a source for, Fresh Chineese for example Nowhere to be found that is both fresh and truly good. People gave us lists of chinese resturuants to try, we drove all over the place looking for a really good place with fresh ingrediaents (it makes a huge difference in Chinese food), we concluded they do not know what fresh good Chinese is. If someone has never had really good fresh chinese food, they will not know it is missing

Exemplary Mexicon food is hard to find even in the Mexican villiage. It can be found, bit it is not easy to find. There are people here who think taco bell is mexican food.

Most of the high end restruaunts, even in Detroit, are not all that great, there are a few stand out exceptions, but by comparison, they are very few. Mostly high end (execellent food( prices for food that is just good or very good. I am not sure there are ten places with great seafood.

Chains abound. A larger percentage of resturuants appear to be chains, especially outside the City CHains cannot serve really good food because they have a single menue for all regions, thus, theuir food has to be bland enough to be acceptable everywhere and good nowhere, They make everything sweet and bland in order to please the greatest number of people from all regions. LIke everyhing, there are exceptions, expecially for smaller chains.

Pretty much everyone we meet who moves here from another major metro says the same thing. The first striking difference they notice is a paucity of really good resturaunts. Usually they comment about indifferent service as well, although that is not all perveasive, it varies.

While Detroit metro has many good points, food is not one of them. Although we do have really good pizza mostly because of Jets, There are other good pizza places but they are not very broadly available (except downtown, downtown is a pizza mecca)

Last edited by Coldjensens; 06-11-2017 at 04:17 AM..
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:18 AM
 
169 posts, read 131,319 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I did niot ssay thre are none, I only said they are few and far between. Maybe you are agreeing with me, it is not clear, One big difference for us, is if we wanted truely good Mexican, middle eastern, traditional American, Fresh Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Greek, Russian, Danish, - whatevver food , t was available within a few miles, we did not have to drive some special place 20 - 30nmiles away

Many kinds of food, we still have not found a source for, Fresh Chineese for example Nowhere to be found that is both fresh and truly good. People gave us lists of chinese resturuants to try, we drove all over the place looking for a really good place with fresh ingrediaents (it makes a huge difference in Chinese food), we concluded they do not know what fresh good Chinese is. If someone has never had really good fresh chinese food, they will not know it is missing

Exemplary Mexicon food is hard to find even in the Mexican villiage. It can be found, bit it is not easy to find. There are people here who think taco bell is mexican food.

Most of the high end restruaunts, even in Detroit, are not all that great, there are a few stand out exceptions, but by comparison, they are very few. Mostly high end (execellent food( prices for food that is just good or very good. I am not sure there are ten places with great seafood.

Chains abound. A larger percentage of resturuants appear to be chains, especially outside the City CHains cannot serve really good food because they have a single menue for all regions, thus, theuir food has to be bland enough to be acceptable everywhere and good nowhere, They make everything sweet and bland in order to please the greatest number of people from all regions. LIke everyhing, there are exceptions, expecially for smaller chains.

Pretty much everyone we meet who moves here from another major metro says the same thing. The first striking difference they notice is a paucity of really good resturaunts. Usually they comment about indifferent service as well, although that is not all perveasive, it varies.

While Detroit metro has many good points, food is not one of them. Although we do have really good pizza mostly because of Jets, There are other good pizza places but they are not very broadly available (except downtown, downtown is a pizza mecca)
Ummm, you live downriver. Not exactly the Mecca for fine dining, but great for chain restaurants. If you want fine dining, you have to travel to higher end areas such as Birmingham, Northville, etc. We just ate at a place called Table 5 in downtown Northville last night. Seriously some of the best food I've eaten. Prepared perfectly, but by no means budget friendly. You have to venture far from downriver if you want fine dining experiences.
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,567,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
Ummm, you live downriver. Not exactly the Mecca for fine dining, but great for chain restaurants. If you want fine dining, you have to travel to higher end areas such as Birmingham, Northville, etc. We just ate at a place called Table 5 in downtown Northville last night. Seriously some of the best food I've eaten. Prepared perfectly, but by no means budget friendly. You have to venture far from downriver if you want fine dining experiences.
You are agreeing with exactly what I said. Truely awesome food is out there, just hard to find.

Most of the time we eat out we are venturing form Lyon Township, or from Westland. Northville has a coule of great places, Birmingham has a few as does Rochester, Detroit has some, even lansing has one, which is exactly the point There is good and execellent food here, but it is far less common than ohter big metros

It seems there is a difficulty getting the point across there is a difference between saying there are no good resturuants and the are few. I am not sure how I can better explain this distinction

BTW there is even some execellent dining downriver. Some of us do nto even eat muskrat every night. We have electricity and indoor plumbing
now too.
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