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Old 05-30-2017, 01:22 PM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,815,166 times
Reputation: 2099

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Detroit had a nice well laid out street car system. The Auto MFGs and tire companies pressured the government to tear it out. They wanted people driving to and from the suburbs and around town. While it worked to build the American Auto industry to be the leading industry in the world for a time, it was very damaging to Detroit and other cities as well. I think Q line was intended to try to replicate part of the streetcar system and in fact, they had to tear out buried street car tracks to install the current system.
A long ago debunked myth: The GM Trolley Conspiracy: What Really Happened - CBS News
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Chicago
937 posts, read 842,316 times
Reputation: 1102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
Sorry, but money losing train systems are "totally yesterday." That giant sucking sound you hear in cities is ride sharing apps taking fares away from mass transit systems. Why? Because mass transit is a huge pain and inconvenience even in the aforementioned cities. People want the convenience of rise sharing and soon to be autonomous vehicles. The future of mobility is in ride sharing technology and autonomous vehicles being developed right here in old backwards Detroit.
You do realize that, in order for ride sharing to become a viable form of transit on par with rail systems, you would essentially have nothing but severely congested roads at all times, right? That would eliminate one of the primary benefits of travelling by car vs train.

In order to combat this, you'd need to have high capacity cars that could hold dozens of people. Which we have currently, they are called buses. You're essentially saying that autonomous buses are superior to rail, which might have a kernel of truth to it... but that future is a far cry from what you and your ideological allies are intending to conjure up with your cries of "a chicken in every pot and an UberPool in every garage".
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,103 posts, read 1,347,071 times
Reputation: 2885
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
It's no coincident that smart urban planners have used Detroit as the poster child for what not to do when realizing that those "old fashioned" methods of mass transit, density and walkability are the most desirable, which is why cities from Atlanta to LA to Denver to Dallas have/are expanding rapid transit. So in the end, 19th Century cities like New York, Boston and Chicago inadvertently got it right when rail transit was all cities had in terms of moving large numbers of people.
I put together this spread sheet from information on Governing.com using the eight cities you mentioned.
Governing magazine: State and local government news for America's leaders

The categories include average commute time on public transportation, average commute time driving alone, percent of total commuters using public transportation, Average walking minutes to commute, and ranking of worst Friday afternoon commutes. For convince I highlighted the worst in red and the best in green in each category.

When I look at those numbers in that chart I don't believe that our admittedly rather poor mass transit system is as dire as made out by some. I don't think a better system would somehow be a magic bullet or the missing piece in our recovery. I'm not saying it wouldn't help I just think some folks put more in to it than they really should.
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Likes and Dislikes about Metro Detroit-8-city-commute.jpg  
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Old 05-30-2017, 01:45 PM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,815,166 times
Reputation: 2099
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
You do realize that, in order for ride sharing to become a viable form of transit on par with rail systems, you would essentially have nothing but severely congested roads at all times, right? That would eliminate one of the primary benefits of travelling by car vs train.

In order to combat this, you'd need to have high capacity cars that could hold dozens of people. Which we have currently, they are called buses. You're essentially saying that autonomous buses are superior to rail, which might have a kernel of truth to it... but that future is a far cry from what you and your ideological allies are intending to conjure up with your cries of "a chicken in every pot and an UberPool in every garage".
I would have no problem with a program that subsidized UberPool rides for commuters as opposed to some sort of rail system. It would be far cheaper, far more useful to more of the population and FAR more efficient than the next hare brained Q Line scheme.
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Old 05-30-2017, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,103 posts, read 1,347,071 times
Reputation: 2885
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
You do realize that, in order for ride sharing to become a viable form of transit on par with rail systems, you would essentially have nothing but severely congested roads at all times, right? That would eliminate one of the primary benefits of travelling by car vs train.
That is not necessarily a logical conclusion. Right now a vast majority of commuting across the country is in single driver cars. If those people somehow shared rides it could drastically reduce congestion.
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Old 05-30-2017, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,749 posts, read 65,567,547 times
Reputation: 32915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
I wonder how much GM paid him for that article. Analyze what they are saying, and you may see some holes in their logic.

"Buses replaced streetcars becasue buses do not require rails which are expensive to install, and that is why we tore out all the already existing rails (where we had the clout to make that happen, while rail transportation proceeded to do just fine where we did not tear out the rails). This is a story some executive thought up in their office after too much coffee and failed to think it through fully. They are also missing the explanation for why cities are now replacing the rail systems that were torn out. In fact, in Detroit, they put the new rails right over the top of the old ones there were buried in pavement (and could have still been in use if they had not been buried in pavement. We still have buses. In fact, buses are better than ever before. Rails are still way way more expensive than buses.

Did they personally tear out the lines? No they worked politically to ensure the lines were not adopted by public agencies and expanded. That they did to receive subsidies to keep them going, and that the removal of the lines was approved. With the rail lines still in place mostly int he public right of way, there was a risk someone would bring them back. Tear them out, cover them up, build things in the right of way and you guarantee they are gone forever, or at least for several decades.

Was it Evil Gm? No. Tire companies were heavily influential as were all the auto companies, second and third tier suppliers, gasoline companies, and others.

Last edited by Coldjensens; 05-30-2017 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 05-31-2017, 07:09 AM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,815,166 times
Reputation: 2099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
I wonder how much GM paid him for that article. Analyze what they are saying, and you may see some holes in their logic.

"Buses replaced streetcars becasue buses do not require rails which are expensive to install, and that is why we tore out all the already existing rails (where we had the clout to make that happen, while rail transportation proceeded to do just fine where we did not tear out the rails). This is a story some executive thought up in their office after too much coffee and failed to think it through fully. They are also missing the explanation for why cities are now replacing the rail systems that were torn out. In fact, in Detroit, they put the new rails right over the top of the old ones there were buried in pavement (and could have still been in use if they had not been buried in pavement. We still have buses. In fact, buses are better than ever before. Rails are still way way more expensive than buses.

Did they personally tear out the lines? No they worked politically to ensure the lines were not adopted by public agencies and expanded. That they did to receive subsidies to keep them going, and that the removal of the lines was approved. With the rail lines still in place mostly int he public right of way, there was a risk someone would bring them back. Tear them out, cover them up, build things in the right of way and you guarantee they are gone forever, or at least for several decades.

Was it Evil Gm? No. Tire companies were heavily influential as were all the auto companies, second and third tier suppliers, gasoline companies, and others.
Really? A conspiracy theory? GM was motivated to cover this up 100 years after the fact because? Maybe you should check out InfoWars instead of CD...

Can you produce any evidence besides your typical rambling?

Total BS...like the vast majority of your posts.
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Old 05-31-2017, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,749 posts, read 65,567,547 times
Reputation: 32915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
Really? A conspiracy theory? GM was motivated to cover this up 100 years after the fact because? Maybe you should check out InfoWars instead of CD...

Can you produce any evidence besides your typical rambling?

Total BS...like the vast majority of your posts.
Thank you. What a nice thing to say. Posts like this really enhance your credibility. Well thought out and logical.. . . . oh wait. . . .
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:04 PM
 
2,992 posts, read 3,145,785 times
Reputation: 2583
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig11152 View Post
I put together this spread sheet from information on Governing.com using the eight cities you mentioned.
Governing magazine: State and local government news for America's leaders

The categories include average commute time on public transportation, average commute time driving alone, percent of total commuters using public transportation, Average walking minutes to commute, and ranking of worst Friday afternoon commutes. For convince I highlighted the worst in red and the best in green in each category.

When I look at those numbers in that chart I don't believe that our admittedly rather poor mass transit system is as dire as made out by some. I don't think a better system would somehow be a magic bullet or the missing piece in our recovery. I'm not saying it wouldn't help I just think some folks put more in to it than they really should.
There is no "magic bullet" for any malady in life... But a quality mass transit system would be as close to being a magic bullet for Detroit's woes as one could come... It never ceases to amaze me how much arcane statistical minutiae Detroiters can dig up to justify the City's deeply-entrenched backwardness toward mass transit.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:35 AM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,815,166 times
Reputation: 2099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Thank you. What a nice thing to say. Posts like this really enhance your credibility. Well thought out and logical.. . . . oh wait. . . .
Says the guy who can't produce a single shred of evidence to back up his conspiracy theory.
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