U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan > Detroit
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-14-2017, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Chicago
939 posts, read 843,381 times
Reputation: 1102

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkeith View Post
A lot of us baby boomers worked hard, period, and made certain that our children did the same. When we graduated from college in the late '70's, the economy was taking a dump. As first in the family college grads, we had worked toward useful degrees because we knew that we had to, in order to find gainful employment. So jobs weren't hard to come by. Our parents, who grew up during the Depression, were not going to support us after college. We knew that we would be on our own to sink or swim.

Don't blame everything on Mom and Dad.
I'm not blaming anything on mom and dad, I am saying that it is hilarious for people who were offered jobs making the functional equivalent of $100k at age 22 with just a BA from a second tier university to talk about whiny millennials who literally cannot get those jobs anymore because people in your age group have raised entry requirements, lowered salaries, raised tuition and slashed benefits.

Certainly, I think the rates of workers over 65 show that many baby boomers are doing very badly in the world they created, too, and that many bought into fictions about the value of real estate and retirement accounts as investment tools. I think those lessons partially explain why millennials are gun-shy about something as massive as a home purchase.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-14-2017, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,281 posts, read 1,072,599 times
Reputation: 1554
Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I'm not blaming anything on mom and dad, I am saying that it is hilarious for people who were offered jobs making the functional equivalent of $100k at age 22 with just a BA from a second tier university to talk about whiny millennials who literally cannot get those jobs anymore because people in your age group have raised entry requirements, lowered salaries, raised tuition and slashed benefits.

Certainly, I think the rates of workers over 65 show that many baby boomers are doing very badly in the world they created, too, and that many bought into fictions about the value of real estate and retirement accounts as investment tools. I think those lessons partially explain why millennials are gun-shy about something as massive as a home purchase.

I truly do not know of anyone who graduated with me, who found high-paying work with a four year degree in a liberal arts field. Just sales or secretarial work, or factory work. You had to work toward those high demand degrees, which meant "grow up fast." So we did.

We saved our money well for a few years and bought a little house. Mortgage rates were 13% at the time, so we got a loan that increased gradually over 5 years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2017, 01:26 PM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,816,890 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
The "Education is the Key" mantra has always been a myth. I do not know what the exact figure is today, but a decade or so ago only something like 26% of jobs in the economy required a college degree. What would happen if, hypothetically, 80% of the labor force had college degrees while only 26% of jobs required degrees?

The truth is that the law of supply an demand still governs opportunity. College produced higher incomes when the supply of college graduates was less than demand for them. However, as soon as the supply of college educated people exceeded the demand for college educated people, a college degree lost its value. Granted, there are some disciplines where the supply is still below demand and these are your occupations that will pay better, as a general rule.

Going to college and getting a degree is no guarantee for descent salary anymore, because too many people are getting degrees now.
A college degree has never been a guarantee. That mentality is the problem. You need to pair an education with a combination of experience, ambition, emotional IQ and common sense. I don't care what your major is, if you can combine all of those you will be successful. I know a lot of liberal arts majors who are executives and their success has little to do with what they majored in.

The economy is moving more towards professionalized jobs that require an education as an entry point. Again, the degree is not a guarantee, but you won't even be considered for a professional job/career without that box checked.

At the same time there are almost no unskilled jobs that provide a wage that can support a family. Metro Detroit is the poster child for that reality, and I am utterly amazed that there are people who are still surprised by this fact.

So while a college degree is no guarantee of success, NOT getting a college degree (or an equivalent skillset in the trades) is almost a guarantee to be stuck in the lower- to lower-middle classes for life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2017, 05:14 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 24,771,258 times
Reputation: 7812
If one cannot afford monthly rent, how can the pay a mortgage?




https://www.facebook.com/attn/videos/1410474915654630/
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2017, 06:31 PM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
Reputation: 4755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
A college degree has never been a guarantee. That mentality is the problem. You need to pair an education with a combination of experience, ambition, emotional IQ and common sense. I don't care what your major is, if you can combine all of those you will be successful. I know a lot of liberal arts majors who are executives and their success has little to do with what they majored in.

The economy is moving more towards professionalized jobs that require an education as an entry point. Again, the degree is not a guarantee, but you won't even be considered for a professional job/career without that box checked. The

At the same time there are almost no unskilled jobs that provide a wage that can support a family. Metro Detroit is the poster child for that reality, and I am utterly amazed that there are people who are still surprised by this fact.

So while a college degree is no guarantee of success, NOT getting a college degree (or an equivalent skillset in the trades) is almost a guarantee to be stuck in the lower- to lower-middle classes for life.
Here is the thing, if everyone did absolutely all the right things in life, all the things people say a person should do, it would not radically alter the economic stratification that currently exists. Its not an absolute zero sum game, but close to it. The only way some people are going to get more is if some people get less. You are not going to squeeze anymore economic water out of the rock than exists at any given point in time. Hence, for some people to get more some people are going to have to get less and the people who are getting more now simply are not going to let that happen because they have the power. The goal post will just keep being moved every time too many people do what "they" say individuals need to do to be successful. Its kind of like my father growing up in a share cropper family in the Mississippi Delta. Every time they did what they thought was enough to pay off their debt to the landowner, the landowner would say it was not enough. No matter how hard they worked, they never got what they earned because the more they got or earned the less the landowner would profit from what they grew.

What society does it gives people reasons to accept their lesser lot in life, rather than turn on the system for creating false promises and hope. America really does not want a lot of college educated people, buried in debt, who are unemployed and underemployed. That sows the seed for discontent for the system....which is a threat to the system. Hence, a certain number people in society must "fail" so that they can accept lower paying jobs and occupation without feeling they did all the right things. A lot of people need to made to feel "irresponsible" for not doing the right thing rather than being responsible and doing the right thing and not finding success, but rather, having to work two or more jobs just to "make it".

Yeah, there are a lot of success stories that you hear about people making it by following the prescription and doing "all the right things". However, for every one of those persons there are probably 2 or 3 that did all the right things and things did not work out so great for them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2017, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,281 posts, read 1,072,599 times
Reputation: 1554
There is no rule book, no prescription for life that guarantees anyone success. Most everyone meets plenty of obstacles. Optimism and determination help a lot, though. It depends on the individual and their ability to be resilient.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2017, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,587,794 times
Reputation: 32943
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMetro View Post
I would agree that a big problem is that a college degree is no longer the ticket to a high paying job. But, anecdotal personal experiences aside, the student loan debt load is simply not what it was 10 or 20 years ago. This greatly affects my generation's purchasing power. Not saying it wasn't a problem before, it certainly was, I'm just arguing that the magnitude of the problem has increased for folks my age.
This apparently does not account for the value of money over time. Thus the older numbers need to be rougly doubled. This also appers to be taking total numbers, thus it would obviously be a much larger number now becasue twice as many people go to college now. This chart appears to be looking at total debt, not total debt per person. Plus if you are discussing boomers, you need to go back a bit further than 1993 and then if appeaances are correct quadruple the early numbers for a valid comparison (double the number for value of money, then double it again to account for a lareger number of people)

THus when adjusting this chart for a valid apples to apples comparison, this chart will likely show the magnitute of the problem had grown, but only slightly.

The cost of college is insane I agree, Colleges have gone crazy building palaces and monuments to their rulers and alumnai at the expense of the students.

Last edited by Coldjensens; 06-14-2017 at 09:25 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2017, 06:15 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
Reputation: 4755
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkeith View Post
There is no rule book, no prescription for life that guarantees anyone success. Most everyone meets plenty of obstacles. Optimism and determination help a lot, though. It depends on the individual and their ability to be resilient.
I totally agree......but society looks at the poor and points the finger and says "that is because you were irresponsible and did not do x, y and z". Many people do x, y and z and end up the working poor while others obstacles prevent them from even having a realistic chance at getting to x.

Real opportunity for good earnings are like a game of musical chairs. In the game there are 12 people and ten chairs, hypothetically. Four chairs are low wage, 4 chairs are middle wages and 2 chairs are high wages. Hence, regardless of what those 12 people do in terms of education, training, etc, 4 are going to sit in low wage chairs....or sit nowhere. There is not an infinite number of good wage chairs....just waiting for people to do the right thing so they can sit in one. That is what I am saying.

Now, all those things about education, working hard, being responsible.....they help you compete for the best chairs and if your outshine everyone else, you are connected or if you are lucky, or a combination there of, you will get one of the good chairs. In other words, no matter how harder and smarter everyone works, people will be filtered into low wage, middle wage and high wage jobs....even if everyone had PHD's,

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 06-15-2017 at 06:27 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2017, 06:48 AM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,816,890 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Here is the thing, if everyone did absolutely all the right things in life, all the things people say a person should do, it would not radically alter the economic stratification that currently exists. Its not an absolute zero sum game, but close to it. The only way some people are going to get more is if some people get less. You are not going to squeeze anymore economic water out of the rock than exists at any given point in time. Hence, for some people to get more some people are going to have to get less and the people who are getting more now simply are not going to let that happen because they have the power. The goal post will just keep being moved every time too many people do what "they" say individuals need to do to be successful. Its kind of like my father growing up in a share cropper family in the Mississippi Delta. Every time they did what they thought was enough to pay off their debt to the landowner, the landowner would say it was not enough. No matter how hard they worked, they never got what they earned because the more they got or earned the less the landowner would profit from what they grew.

What society does it gives people reasons to accept their lesser lot in life, rather than turn on the system for creating false promises and hope. America really does not want a lot of college educated people, buried in debt, who are unemployed and underemployed. That sows the seed for discontent for the system....which is a threat to the system. Hence, a certain number people in society must "fail" so that they can accept lower paying jobs and occupation without feeling they did all the right things. A lot of people need to made to feel "irresponsible" for not doing the right thing rather than being responsible and doing the right thing and not finding success, but rather, having to work two or more jobs just to "make it".

Yeah, there are a lot of success stories that you hear about people making it by following the prescription and doing "all the right things". However, for every one of those persons there are probably 2 or 3 that did all the right things and things did not work out so great for them.
If you combine an education with hard work, experience and savvy the opportunities will be there. That's not really debatable. You can either seize the opportunity or do nothing and whine and cry about how the system is rigged. Saying "Yeah, well you can still do all of that and still not have it work out" is a loser's mentality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2017, 06:50 AM
 
2,173 posts, read 2,816,890 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I totally agree......but society looks at the poor and points the finger and says "that is because you were irresponsible and did not do x, y and z". Many people do x, y and z and end up the working poor while others obstacles prevent them from even having a realistic chance at getting to x.

Real opportunity for good earnings are like a game of musical chairs. In the game there are 12 people and ten chairs, hypothetically. Four chairs are low wage, 4 chairs are middle wages and 2 chairs are high wages. Hence, regardless of what those 12 people do in terms of education, training, etc, 4 are going to sit in low wage chairs....or sit nowhere. There is not an infinite number of good wage chairs....just waiting for people to do the right thing so they can sit in one. That is what I am saying.

Now, all those things about education, working hard, being responsible.....they help you compete for the best chairs and if your outshine everyone else, you are connected or if you are lucky, or a combination there of, you will get one of the good chairs. In other words, no matter how harder and smarter everyone works, people will be filtered into low wage, middle wage and high wage jobs....even if everyone had PHD's,
This is a loser's mentality
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan > Detroit
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top