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View Poll Results: Help us make a choice!
Royal Oak 6 50.00%
Berkley 3 25.00%
Clawson 0 0%
Wixom 1 8.33%
West Bloomfield 0 0%
Birmingham 2 16.67%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-14-2017, 10:15 PM
 
169 posts, read 131,366 times
Reputation: 150

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
After you have raised your kids you will realize something no one seems to realize in the early years. "Best" is extremely relative. The best for what? What you want is the best educational atmosphere for your particular child. Not the best at teaching kids to take tests. Dumping your kids into a hyper competitive atmosphere where they will either lose their self esteem, become a holes or both, just might not be the best option for your particular kid - depending on what your goals for them are. However for some kids, that may be exactly what they need to thrive. Many business and political leaders need to be convinced they are the "best" went to the "best" schools ect in order to be driven to assume leadership positions. Test score data just might do that for them.

But what do you want for your kids? Harvard admission and an 80 hour a week job as a grunt in a big law firm and their first divorce by age 32? Life balance between spiritual, material, social and academic elements? Wlil their classmates high school test scores give them that? Will an Ivy League pedigree provide it? DO you want your kids to be community oriented? In touch with God? Understanding of a clear purpose in life? Happy? A good parent or spouse? Will Northville or an other school give them that?

Northville is not the "best" school for any given student. It is just the school the produces the "best" test takers right now. It may actually be the "best" for some students, don't get me wrong, Northville has great schools, but not because of test score data. These school rankings and test score comparisons are more about real estate marketing than they are about childrens education. It is all about bragging rights "my kids attend the "best" schools in the State. Sorry, no they don't there is no such thing.

We have a friend that taught their kid test taking from an early age. They have about 10 years practice/preparation for eh SAT and ACT. Their test scores are phenomenal. Are they the "best" student a college could choose? Definitely not. The kid is bright and a decent student, but not the best, not even in his class. There are twenty to thirty or more in their class alone who are ore likely to become college and professional success stories.However based on the same data points used to "rate" schools. This is the "best" graduate our school system will ever produce. Again, like everything it depends on what the goal is. This kid would be a great choice for colleges looking to produce professional test takers, but a poor choice for an arts school.

As more and more parents adopt this plan, this kid and others like him will skew the test scores in some schools. Is our school any "better" because this kid was taught to take standardized tests from age 8? Well according to data Junkies, it certainly is, but guess what?, our school did not improve one iota over the last three years. Nothing changed of consequence. So what made our school "better" when this kids test scores were reported?

For some kids, the "best school is a small school where teachers have the luxury of taking an interest in individual students. For others it is a giant school where the kid can get lost int he crowd and take classes in everything imaginable. Another kid may do well in a school with more under-performing students where it is easier to stand out and that motivates the kid. Yet another may do better in a school that has refused to adopt the "Gold Medal for everyone, you are all winners" philosophy and instead be driven to work hard to accomplish something, but that same kids brother, may need the Gold Medal for participation in order to stay motivated. The school that is "best" for a particular kid today, may well not be the "best" in three, or five, or ten years.

In hindsight, choosing a place to live based on the "best" schools by test data is incredibly foolish. No I am not attacking you. We fell for to too. There are lots of things society promotes that you fall for when you are young and then after your kids are grown you realize was incredibly foolish.

What is the ideal ruberick for choosing a community? I do not have the answer. Find a community that makes you happy, where you feel comfortable and a part of something. If that requires bragging rights about the school test scores last year, then maybe that is the right ruberick, but do not kid yourself into believing you are dong it for your kids. School test scores do not help your kids, you are doing it for yourself. You are filling some psychological need. And if that works, then it is probably a good choice.

As we get older and thing things through more clearly, we realize most of the things we claim to do for the benefit of our kids, were really for our own benefit. We just fooled ourselves into believing it is just for our kids. Pshaw.
I get it now. Northville High School exists solely to prepare kids for the tests and I'm filling a psychological need for wanting my kids to have the best possible education we can provide them. Got it.

So what do you suggest? Sending our kids to a mediocre school district and hoping for the best? Wait, please don't answer that.

Last edited by pojack; 07-14-2017 at 10:36 PM..
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:37 PM
 
169 posts, read 131,366 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Yeahh, I see your point pojack, and I have all along, but I kind of get the feeling you're approaching this as, "There is only one side and if I ignore your point and talk over you by hammering on my own then I'm right." - which as you can probably imagine is really frustrating...
I'm sorry you construe my points and evidence/data to back up those points as ignoring and hammering on you. I hear what you're saying. I just don't agree with it. And I don't think you have anything other than your opinion to back up what you're saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
...so I think I'm going to reiterate the whole "best" is relative thing. I can assure you that an economically homogeneous and wealthy high school would not have been the "best" school for me, nor do I believe it is "best" for most. It is the best for some, and as parents we decide if our kids fit into that "some" or if they fit into another "some".
We're talking "best" as it relates to academics. Nobody has a crystal ball to determine where the "best" place to go to school is on any other level other than the data that's provided. Just like nobody has a crystal ball to determine any other important aspect of life. All anyone can do is go with the data and evidence that's available to them. Maybe if I had a crystal ball, I'd discover that a run down school in Detroit or Inkster would provide the best overall school experience for my kids. I highly doubt it, but I don't have a crystal ball, so I'll never know. When you make decisions in life, it's wise to make informed decisions. I made the decision to send my kids to NPS based on the information and evidence that's available. Again, if a crystal ball were available, maybe I'd determine otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
My partner and I have decided that the cultural and economic diversity of the nicer inner-ring suburbs offer a greater exposure than the more economically homogeneous outer ring suburbs.
Interesting. Since in another thread you claim to live in Berkley. The cultural makeup of Berkley, according to City-Data, is 91% white, 2.7% Hispanic, and 2.4% black. The median household income in Berkley is $76K. Not exactly the cultural/economic diversity you're claiming to be getting. Not unless you live in Berkley but hang out in Southfield or Oak Park.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
We have also decided the inner-ring suburbs offer more of what we're looking for regarding the walkability that this thread was initially about.
Northville and Plymouth offer two of the nicest, walkable downtowns in the metro area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
We have also decided that the commute time to major job centers (Detroit, Southfield, Warren, Troy) is better here - another point the OP was initially asking about
You have a slight advantage when it comes to commuting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
This whole tangent has become a bit much for me and I see no need to rehash the same points which you've not refuted but rather talked over as if somehow this invalidates them...
If by "talking over" you mean presenting opposing views and backing up those views with data, then yes, I'm guilty as charged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
...so I'm happy you love Northville schools so much - they are good schools, there are many other good schools which are in some cases better for some and worse for others. So do I want the "best" for my kids? Of course, and I believe that is what I'm providing them, within the limitations of the best of my means. I think that's what we all strive for.
Good for you. I wish you and your kids the best.

Last edited by pojack; 07-14-2017 at 11:52 PM..
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,761 posts, read 65,577,769 times
Reputation: 32923
Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
I get it now. Northville High School exists solely to prepare kids for the tests and I'm filling a psychological need for wanting my kids to have the best possible education we can provide them. Got it.

So what do you suggest? Sending our kids to a mediocre school district and hoping for the best? Wait, please don't answer that.
No. I suggest doing the real resech to find a good match for your kids but not obsessing over the schools when selecting a place to live. Doing the perental work to give your kids the tools they need to succeed and not just turning them over to the schools and bowing out like so many people do. Not relying on false "merits" publicizsed for the benefit of real estate brokers and for bragging rights to satisfy some psychological need of the parents. And thinking things trough carefully and trying to figure out what is really a true solid benfit for your children and what is just jumping on the bandwagon, or mking yourself feel better, or otherwise doing something for yourslef in the name of doing something for your kids.

Maybe some more suggestions later


Oh And I suggest you practice reading for comprehension and avoid the firly common practice of seeing what you excpet or want while ignoring what someone actually said given that I said none of the things in your first sentnece and actually said tha opposite of some of them. You cannot learn if you cannot accept that other people have already been where you are, made mistakes you are now making without realizing it and sometimes may have useful things to impart. Maybe Bot the first step is accepting you do not know everything, you might be blindly traveling down a problemsome path, and others actaully do know things that do not or cannot yet know.
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Old 07-15-2017, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,929 times
Reputation: 3554
Berkley High School boundaries extend into both Huntington Woods and Oak Park, and the school of choice we've already gone over to the point where there's nothing left to say, if you gathered nothing from previous posts there's not point in me reiterating them. And let's not forget that your uh.. "data" at one point came from "RoadSnacks"

The following times are from Google Maps and estimated using a departure time of 7:30 on a Wednesday

Northville to Warren is 35-65 minutes
Northville to Southfield is 22-45 minutes
Northville to Troy is 40-75 minutes
Northville to Detroit is 35-60 minutes
Berkley to Warren is 16-28 minutes
Berkley to Southfield is 8-18 minutes
Berkley to Troy is 16-30 minutes
Berkley to Detroit is 24-40 minutes (or 24 minutes by bus)

I chose those 4 as according to SEMCOG data they are the 4 largest job centers in the metro. In general we're talking about 20-30 minutes of additional commute time, each way, 10 times a week, or 4-5 hours a week. Granted if you work in Dearborn this isn't a factor (and if Novi it favors you!), but... I work in Macomb County, so... don't tell me it's a "slight advantage" - if I wanted to sit in my car 10 hours a week I'd move to Los Angeles. Unfortunately we don't know where OP works, but OP also appears to have disappeared, so I don't believe we're getting an answer to that.

Downtown Northville is indeed nice. Northville/Twp is 18 square miles. Berkley is 2.5 square miles. I can comfortably afford to live a block off 12 Mile and Coolidge and walk to dinner or the pub, I can't afford to live a block off Sheldon, so I have to drive, park, and then walk - at that point I may as well be in Livonia and go to the local stripmall. In fact there are few places I can comfortably afford within the Northville area at all, unless I want an apartment or townhome - OP seemed to suggest that was not the case, and with a budget of 250k... well... let's just say I know that situation quite well. Northville is a great city (and the township is nice too). One of the crown jewels of the metro, right up there with Birmingham, and the prices reflect this. It's not affordable to most people at my stage in life, which is the same stage in life which OP had indicated she was in.
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:31 PM
 
169 posts, read 131,366 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
No. I suggest doing the real resech to find a good match for your kids but not obsessing over the schools when selecting a place to live. Doing the perental work to give your kids the tools they need to succeed and not just turning them over to the schools and bowing out like so many people do.Not relying on false "merits" publicizsed for the benefit of real estate brokers and for bragging rights to satisfy some psychological need of the parents. And thinking things trough carefully and trying to figure out what is really a true solid benfit for your children and what is just jumping on the bandwagon, or mking yourself feel better, or otherwise doing something for yourslef in the name of doing something for your kids.

I'm probably one of the few people in this forum who has lived in many different cities in the metro area throughout my adult life. I've lived in Detroit, Berkley, Royal Oak, Southgate, Farmington Hills, Livonia, and now Northville. I think I've had enough experience in each of these communities to qualify as "real research" for choosing a community to raise my family. Real life experience, combined with what the data says, combined with the fact that we like the western suburbs the most, landed us in Northville. And the fact that you suggest that we are choosing one of the best communities to live in the metro area (although you may be the only one who will argue that) with an excellent school district because we feel the need to "fill a psychological void" combined with the fact that you believe that NPS ultimate goal is to teach kids to score well on standardized tests in order to create a better housing market makes it a challenge to take anything else you say seriously. Those statements make you sound like a loony tune conspiracy theorist.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:34 PM
 
169 posts, read 131,366 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Berkley High School boundaries extend into both Huntington Woods and Oak Park, and the school of choice we've already gone over to the point where there's nothing left to say, if you gathered nothing from previous posts there's not point in me reiterating them. And let's not forget that your uh.. "data" at one point came from "RoadSnacks"

When you stated, "My partner and I have decided that the cultural and economic diversity of the nicer inner-ring suburbs offer a greater exposure than the more economically homogeneous outer ring suburbs.", I was under the impression, and it appears as though you were saying that you chose the actual community you live in (Berkley) based on the economic and cultural diversity of Berkley. Not the fact that Berkley offers school of choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
The following times are from Google Maps and estimated using a departure time of 7:30 on a Wednesday

Northville to Warren is 35-65 minutes
Northville to Southfield is 22-45 minutes
Northville to Troy is 40-75 minutes
Northville to Detroit is 35-60 minutes
Berkley to Warren is 16-28 minutes
Berkley to Southfield is 8-18 minutes
Berkley to Troy is 16-30 minutes
Berkley to Detroit is 24-40 minutes (or 24 minutes by bus)

I chose those 4 as according to SEMCOG data they are the 4 largest job centers in the metro. In general we're talking about 20-30 minutes of additional commute time, each way, 10 times a week, or 4-5 hours a week. Granted if you work in Dearborn this isn't a factor (and if Novi it favors you!), but... I work in Macomb County, so... don't tell me it's a "slight advantage" - if I wanted to sit in my car 10 hours a week I'd move to Los Angeles. Unfortunately we don't know where OP works, but OP also appears to have disappeared, so I don't believe we're getting an answer to that.

I live on the North side of Northville near 8 Mile and work downtown Detroit. With no traffic, it takes me 30 minutes. During morning/evening rush hour, it takes me 45-50 minutes. And I drive the speed limit. So it appears as though I'd save 10 minutes both ways to work if I lived in Berkley. That's the slight advantage I was speaking of. 20 minutes extra per day spent in the car is substantial, but not overbearing. Hence the term "slight". I was speaking to my situation. I agree that Northville is much further from Troy, Warren, and Southfield than Berkley is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Downtown Northville is indeed nice. Northville/Twp is 18 square miles. Berkley is 2.5 square miles. I can comfortably afford to live a block off 12 Mile and Coolidge and walk to dinner or the pub, I can't afford to live a block off Sheldon, so I have to drive, park, and then walk - at that point I may as well be in Livonia and go to the local stripmall. In fact there are few places I can comfortably afford within the Northville area at all, unless I want an apartment or townhome - OP seemed to suggest that was not the case, and with a budget of 250k... well... let's just say I know that situation quite well. Northville is a great city (and the township is nice too). One of the crown jewels of the metro, right up there with Birmingham, and the prices reflect this. It's not affordable to most people at my stage in life, which is the same stage in life which OP had indicated she was in.

There is a Northville neighborhood 3/4 of a mile from downtown Northville that has mid century 1200 SF brick ranches priced in the $230-250K range. It's not a block from downtown, but a 3/4 of a mile walk takes 15 minutes. Granted, these homes are few and far between, but it is possible to get a move in ready home in Northville within walking distance to downtown for $230K.


Below is an example. They are asking a bit much for it because it's been for sale by owner for over two weeks. Had they priced it at around $220K, it would've been sold in a week. It'll sell, but they'll have to drop the price a bit because it needs a new roof and updates.


http://tinyurl.com/y7uzerzd
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,929 times
Reputation: 3554
Haha, all right - well we can argue this until the forum explodes, but I think we've both made our points. You're a smart guy (gal?) I'd love to get your input on this topic, if you've not done so already. It addresses some of what we've been talking about the past couple pages. What is best for one person, is not best for another:

//www.city-data.com/forum/detro...o-detroit.html
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:41 PM
 
169 posts, read 131,366 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Haha, all right - well we can argue this until the forum explodes, but I think we've both made our points. You're a smart guy (gal?) I'd love to get your input on this topic, if you've not done so already. It addresses some of what we've been talking about the past couple pages. What is best for one person, is not best for another:

//www.city-data.com/forum/detro...o-detroit.html
Thanks for the compliment. I agree with some of your points and believe you have your act together as well. Bottom line, we both want what's best for our families. That's the most important thing. I definitely agree that "best" is relative depending on particular circumstances.
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Old 07-21-2017, 06:06 AM
 
915 posts, read 1,158,710 times
Reputation: 1285
Well..... a lot of people wouldn't consider a house that needs a new roof move-in ready.

The main criteria for the definition is "no major repairs" needed.

Updating a roof qualifies as a major repair.

Maybe we just have different definitions.
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Old 07-21-2017, 06:37 AM
 
915 posts, read 1,158,710 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
I'm probably one of the few people in this forum who has lived in many different cities in the metro area throughout my adult life. I've lived in Detroit, Berkley, Royal Oak, Southgate, Farmington Hills, Livonia, and now Northville. I think I've had enough experience in each of these communities to qualify as "real research" for choosing a community to raise my family. Real life experience, combined with what the data says, combined with the fact that we like the western suburbs the most, landed us in Northville. And the fact that you suggest that we are choosing one of the best communities to live in the metro area (although you may be the only one who will argue that) with an excellent school district because we feel the need to "fill a psychological void" combined with the fact that you believe that NPS ultimate goal is to teach kids to score well on standardized tests in order to create a better housing market makes it a challenge to take anything else you say seriously. Those statements make you sound like a loony tune conspiracy theorist.
Yep - I tend to agree.

We've lived all over too (Royal Oak, Ferndale, Sterling Heights, St. Clair Shores, Rochester Hills, Canton, and South Lyon) and we almost landed in Northville.

It's really a preference of what you like.

We like living in wealthier communities because standards tend to be higher and there's just a different mentality. Sometimes, things can get a bit snooty, but we'd rather have snooty than going to a grocery store that has to employ security guards for the front door (like we experienced at the south end of Ferndale back in 2001).

Both my husband and I grew up in poverty, so living in a community that values further education (beyond high school) and hard work is a huge deal.

Yea - some people can be pretentious (and there is a dark side to wealth), but guess what - I can choose who my friends are. In the end, we like having nice things and we like that our neighbors do too.

We like living the suburban dream. It's not everyone's dream, but it's okay that it's ours.

I get really tired of the anti-suburb mentality because a lot of people really have no idea how lucky they are to live in an area which is safe and has decent amenities. I'm really okay with "boring" because I learned as a kid that drama isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Stability is a huge issue for both my spouse and I, so living in a stable community, just reinforces our values and the life that we are giving to our son.

It's quite sad that our society values being "edgy" and "trendy" over being "normal".

Cities are nice, but I always just wanted my nice house in the suburbs.

The area we live in now is a bit too rural for us, but it still works out. We love our house and the community is really perfect for us. It's a good mix of people. I find it a bit ironic that I ended up in an area with a lot of green spaces, given that I swore up and down that I'd live somewhere that was more built up (when I was a kid living in the country). However, I feel like I have the best of both worlds here.

In fact, I was commenting to my son yesterday that I drive down more dirt roads now than when I lived in rural Kalamazoo county. He was not amused.
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