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View Poll Results: Help us make a choice!
Royal Oak 6 50.00%
Berkley 3 25.00%
Clawson 0 0%
Wixom 1 8.33%
West Bloomfield 0 0%
Birmingham 2 16.67%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-21-2017, 01:38 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,292,617 times
Reputation: 1864

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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
We like living the suburban dream. It's not everyone's dream, but it's okay that it's ours.

I get really tired of the anti-suburb mentality because a lot of people really have no idea how lucky they are to live in an area which is safe and has decent amenities. I'm really okay with "boring" because I learned as a kid that drama isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Stability is a huge issue for both my spouse and I, so living in a stable community, just reinforces our values and the life that we are giving to our son.

It's quite sad that our society values being "edgy" and "trendy" over being "normal".

Cities are nice, but I always just wanted my nice house in the suburbs.

The area we live in now is a bit too rural for us, but it still works out. We love our house and the community is really perfect for us. It's a good mix of people. I find it a bit ironic that I ended up in an area with a lot of green spaces, given that I swore up and down that I'd live somewhere that was more built up (when I was a kid living in the country). However, I feel like I have the best of both worlds here.

In fact, I was commenting to my son yesterday that I drive down more dirt roads now than when I lived in rural Kalamazoo county. He was not amused.
The people who share an anti-suburb mentality are greatly outnumbered by the people who share your suburban mentality, the proof is in the % of people who live in the suburbs vs the % of people the city. The city-data forum is slanted toward urban moreso than the overall US population.

So there is a minority of people who don't share your view - why is that "quite sad"?

What I think is quite sad is the emptying out of the city and the inner ring suburbs, and the gobbling up of nature, pastures, forests, orchards, and farms in places like South Lyon in a metro area that hasn't gained any population since the '60's yet continues to sprawl out of control leaving perfectly fine older suburbs to shrivel up and die.
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,463 times
Reputation: 3554
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
The people who share an anti-suburb mentality are greatly outnumbered by the people who share your suburban mentality, the proof is in the % of people who live in the suburbs vs the % of people the city. The city-data forum is slanted toward urban moreso than the overall US population.

So there is a minority of people who don't share your view - why is that "quite sad"?

What I think is quite sad is the emptying out of the city and the inner ring suburbs, and the gobbling up of nature, pastures, forests, orchards, and farms in places like South Lyon in a metro area that hasn't gained any population since the '60's yet continues to sprawl out of control leaving perfectly fine older suburbs to shrivel up and die.
100% this. usroute10, you sir are the recipient of Geo-Aggie's "Post of the Day" award.

I'd upvote it twice if I could, but instead you get an arbitrary and made up award. Congrats on understanding geography, human behavior, the world around you.
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:24 AM
 
169 posts, read 131,319 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
Well..... a lot of people wouldn't consider a house that needs a new roof move-in ready.

The main criteria for the definition is "no major repairs" needed.

Updating a roof qualifies as a major repair.

Maybe we just have different definitions.
It needs a new roof. Not immediately, but within a few years. It's not leaking yet, so it still qualifies as move in ready. Had the roof been leaking, I'd agree with you. Kind of like a house that will need a new furnace within 5 years. It still qualifies as move in ready because the furnace is still functional even though a furnace replacement is on the horizon. "Move in ready" doesn't mean "new". As stated, they're asking too much since it does need a new roof and updates. A similar house sold for $265K last year that had a renovated interior, but an old, existing exterior.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:32 AM
 
169 posts, read 131,319 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post

We like living in wealthier communities because standards tend to be higher and there's just a different mentality. Sometimes, things can get a bit snooty, but we'd rather have snooty than going to a grocery store that has to employ security guards for the front door (like we experienced at the south end of Ferndale back in 2001).
Exactly. I'd rather deal with the snootiness than having my neighbors blowing off fireworks at 1:00am while my kids are trying to sleep, having my garage broken into several times, having my tatoo'ed single mother neighbor screaming swear words at her toddlers on a daily basis for not listening to her, and looking at check cashing places, pharmacies and medical marijuana places on every corner. All things I experienced living downriver that I have not in Northville. It's a class thing. Lower class people tend to be, well, lower class. I don't want my family to experience low class culture. And I don't see the need for my kids to go to school in a "socioeconomically diverse" school district. With "socioeconomic diversity" comes low class culture. They can learn those things on their own when they become adults. I don't want them learning them during their impressionable years. On the other hand, if I were single with no family, by all means, I'd probably choose an affordable place like downriver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
We like living the suburban dream. It's not everyone's dream, but it's okay that it's ours.

I get really tired of the anti-suburb mentality because a lot of people really have no idea how lucky they are to live in an area which is safe and has decent amenities. I'm really okay with "boring" because I learned as a kid that drama isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

Stability is a huge issue for both my spouse and I, so living in a stable community, just reinforces our values and the life that we are giving to our son.

It's quite sad that our society values being "edgy" and "trendy" over being "normal".

Cities are nice, but I always just wanted my nice house in the suburbs.
Most people, by a lot, would rather be in the suburbs. The anti-suburb mentality is usually trumpeted by millennials who grew up in "boring" suburbs who now want the perceived excitement and trendiness of the city. Until they start a family. Then they realize they want the "boring" suburb again.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:46 AM
 
169 posts, read 131,319 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
What I think is quite sad is the emptying out of the city and the inner ring suburbs, and the gobbling up of nature, pastures, forests, orchards, and farms in places like South Lyon in a metro area that hasn't gained any population since the '60's yet continues to sprawl out of control leaving perfectly fine older suburbs to shrivel up and die.
Why do you think it's sprawling out of control? I suspect it has less to do with the desire to own a Mcmansion and more to do with escaping the low class culture that has permeated the "perfectly fine" older suburbs during the housing crash. Take Southgate for example. When I bought a house there in 2006, it was a solid middle class suburb with decent schools and relatively low crime. In 10 years, it's become a lower class shell of its former self with below average schools, largely due to the fact that it became affordable during the housing crash for people who weren't able to afford it prior to the crash. As a result, lower class people started moving in and middle class people started moving out to escape the lower class culture. Most inner ring suburbs are shells of their former selves with the exception of a few for the same reason. They are no longer "perfectly fine" for many people. As a result, you now have sprawl beyond the traditional outer ring suburbs.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,752 posts, read 65,567,547 times
Reputation: 32915
Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
I'm probably one of the few people in this forum who has lived in many different cities in the metro area throughout my adult life. I've lived in Detroit, Berkley, Royal Oak, Southgate, Farmington Hills, Livonia, and now Northville. I think I've had enough experience in each of these communities to qualify as "real research" for choosing a community to raise my family. Real life experience, combined with what the data says, combined with the fact that we like the western suburbs the most, landed us in Northville. And the fact that you suggest that we are choosing one of the best communities to live in the metro area (although you may be the only one who will argue that) with an excellent school district because we feel the need to "fill a psychological void" combined with the fact that you believe that NPS ultimate goal is to teach kids to score well on standardized tests in order to create a better housing market makes it a challenge to take anything else you say seriously. Those statements make you sound like a loony tune conspiracy theorist.
You must not have gone to northville schools, you did n to learn how to read. I never said Northville only teches to the test, I said the tests socre really tell you very little. It only tells you the school does a good job teaching people to take tests, it does nto tell you anything else about the school good or bad. I suggest two courses tht you can find at any community college or university. Basic logic and reading comprehension. reading comprehension courses are not so labled, they are just literature courses, but in those classes you will earn to read things and understand what is begin said and what is not being said. the logic course will teach you the fallacy of assuming if sonone says X =Y that they are saying Y= only X. It kind of goes lke this: If it is raining, I am wet. The fallacty is "If I am wet, that means it is raining. Grasping how tht pplies to our current discussion is little more advanced, but those two classes willg et you there. Actually you can probbly take classes to help you with both issues at Northvulle high school, but I do not think they will let you in, unless they have night classes.

The good news is if you stay in Northville and your kids graduate from school there, they will not likely have this problem by the time they reach or finish their basic college dgerees.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,800,902 times
Reputation: 2624
Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
Why do you think it's sprawling out of control? I suspect it has less to do with the desire to own a Mcmansion and more to do with escaping the low class culture that has permeated the "perfectly fine" older suburbs during the housing crash. Take Southgate for example. When I bought a house there in 2006, it was a solid middle class suburb with decent schools and relatively low crime. In 10 years, it's become a lower class shell of its former self with below average schools, largely due to the fact that it became affordable during the housing crash for people who weren't able to afford it prior to the crash. As a result, lower class people started moving in and middle class people started moving out to escape the lower class culture. Most inner ring suburbs are shells of their former selves with the exception of a few for the same reason. They are no longer "perfectly fine" for many people. As a result, you now have sprawl beyond the traditional outer ring suburbs.
Idek what "lower class culture" is supposed to mean because there are plenty of middle class people who have just as much drama and problems as lower class people. Most "lower class" people are normal human beings that mind their own business and work for a living.

And think about this, if you have a block of 40 homes and one home is sold to a "lower class" family. Now all because of that one family 4 other people sell their homes claiming the neighborhood is going down. Now your block has 5 "lower class" families. Fast forward a couple years later and 10 more people have sold their homes claiming the neighborhood is going down, now that's 15 lower class families. In another couple of years it's going to be 30. You can see the trend here. So instead of co existing with a small minority, they made the minority the majority and then say "it's not like it used to be", well of course it isn't.

As for the schools, well unless all of the teacher, principles, and the school board quit. The schools themselves are most likely largely the same. If I'm not mistaking "good" or "bad" schools are largely based off of test scores. Which means if a handful of straight A students was forced to leave the school because their parents moved further out and the students moving in isn't quite up to par, the test scores for the school district will obviously go down. But if a child has been a straight A student in the Southgate public school system all of his life, his grades are highly unlikely to change just because the average test scores in that school district changed.
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Old 07-22-2017, 10:43 AM
 
169 posts, read 131,319 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
You must not have gone to northville schools, you did n to learn how to read. I never said Northville only teches to the test, I said the tests socre really tell you very little.
It only tells you the school does a good job teaching people to take tests, it does nto tell you anything else about the school good or bad. I suggest two courses tht you can find at any community college or university. Basic logic and reading comprehension. reading comprehension courses are not so labled, they are just literature courses, but in those classes you will earn to read things and understand what is begin said and what is not being said. the logic course will teach you the fallacy of assuming if sonone says X =Y that they are saying Y= only X. It kind of goes lke this: If it is raining, I am wet. The fallacty is "If I am wet, that means it is raining. Grasping how tht pplies to our current discussion is little more advanced, but those two classes willg et you there. Actually you can probbly take classes to help you with both issues at Northvulle high school, but I do not think they will let you in, unless they have night classes.

The good news is if you stay in Northville and your kids graduate from school there, they will not likely have this problem by the time they reach or finish their basic college dgerees.
Hey genius, go back and read post #51. You most certainly suggested that they teach to test. What you said was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
After you have raised your kids you will realize something no one seems to realize in the early years. "Best" is extremely relative. The best for what? What you want is the best educational atmosphere for your particular child. Not the best at teaching kids to take tests.
I even highlighted your ridiculous statements in red in post #51 because they were so outlandish I wanted everyone to see them. Especially the one about me needing to fill a psychological need by sending my kids there.

It's ironic that you're questioning my reading comprehension ability in a post filled with grammatical and spelling errors. If you're going to attempt to criticize someone's reading comprehension ability, at least make sure your spelling and grammar are correct.
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:51 AM
 
169 posts, read 131,319 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
Idek what "lower class culture" is supposed to mean because there are plenty of middle class people who have just as much drama and problems as lower class people. Most "lower class" people are normal human beings that mind their own business and work for a living.
Lower class culture in a neighborhood is constantly hearing loud bass booming, loud motorcycles/cars roaring by, heavily tattoo'ed neighbors screaming, walking into the supermarket and not seeing the quality products you see at the same supermarket 20 miles down the road in the middle and upper class areas, seeing 10 pharmacies within a 3 mile radius, most of which are up to no good feeding the opioid addictions of many of the residents, having your garage burglarized twice in 6 months, going into a supermarket at midnight and seeing several people shopping with their wide awake toddlers who look tired, driving down the street and seeing all of the seedy motels which are havens for prostitution and drugs, living near topless bars, or adult novelty stores having to explain to your child the reason why the mannequins in the window are dressed in slutty lingerie, etc., etc., etc...

I could go on and on about my experiences living in a once middle class suburb and watching it turn lower class in a 10 year period. I haven't experienced these things in middle class areas. Maybe on occasion, but not on a regular basis. That's what "lower class culture" means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
And think about this, if you have a block of 40 homes and one home is sold to a "lower class" family. Now all because of that one family 4 other people sell their homes claiming the neighborhood is going down. Now your block has 5 "lower class" families. Fast forward a couple years later and 10 more people have sold their homes claiming the neighborhood is going down, now that's 15 lower class families. In another couple of years it's going to be 30. You can see the trend here. So instead of co existing with a small minority, they made the minority the majority and then say "it's not like it used to be", well of course it isn't.
It didn't play out like that. It was a result of people walking away from their houses because they weren't worth what they owed on them even though they've been there for years. People walked away and created a bunch of foreclosures that the banks sold for pennies to people who normally wouldn't have been able to afford it. But it mainly created a lot of homes which were bought up by landlords who rented them out cheaply. So instead of one person moving off of the block at a time, it was more like 5 or 10 moving off the block at a time. When lower class folks started moving in, they brought their lower class ways with them which drove many people out, including me. I don't want to live near that nonsense. It's not how I want to raise my family. Some people are ok with it. I'm not one of those people. If I were single, it wouldn't matter to me, but I have a family. I was raised middle class. I'm sure as hell not going to raise my family lower class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
As for the schools, well unless all of the teacher, principles, and the school board quit. The schools themselves are most likely largely the same. If I'm not mistaking "good" or "bad" schools are largely based off of test scores. Which means if a handful of straight A students was forced to leave the school because their parents moved further out and the students moving in isn't quite up to par, the test scores for the school district will obviously go down. But if a child has been a straight A student in the Southgate public school system all of his life, his grades are highly unlikely to change just because the average test scores in that school district changed.
But if you suddenly have kids entering your school system in the 6th grade who are on a 3rd grade level from other districts, it creates more than a few issues. The teachers and district are forced to dumb down the curriculum in order to accommodate the kids 2 or 3 years behind. I know teachers in Southgate schools. They both unequivocally state how bad the district has gotten in the last ten years.
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,463 times
Reputation: 3554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
You must not have gone to northville schools, you did n to learn how to read. I never said Northville only teches to the test, I said the tests socre really tell you very little. It only tells you the school does a good job teaching people to take tests, it does nto tell you anything else about the school good or bad. I suggest two courses tht you can find at any community college or university. Basic logic and reading comprehension. reading comprehension courses are not so labled, they are just literature courses, but in those classes you will earn to read things and understand what is begin said and what is not being said. the logic course will teach you the fallacy of assuming if sonone says X =Y that they are saying Y= only X. It kind of goes lke this: If it is raining, I am wet. The fallacty is "If I am wet, that means it is raining. Grasping how tht pplies to our current discussion is little more advanced, but those two classes willg et you there. Actually you can probbly take classes to help you with both issues at Northvulle high school, but I do not think they will let you in, unless they have night classes.

The good news is if you stay in Northville and your kids graduate from school there, they will not likely have this problem by the time they reach or finish their basic college dgerees.
Based on past posts and your typically well-spoken expression, I'm sure you know how painful this was to read, but so you know - it was quite painful! -- Also, yes, you see my pain in this topic. You say one thing, a tiny part of that gets recognized and tangents into a straw man. Then once said straw man is defeated, smugness abounds.

So, back to topic, this post was initially about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marylennox View Post
We are expecting Our first baby this november, we are currently living in Royal Oak and we love it. Except our 1 bedroom 550 sq ft condo has become too small for us 3. We thought of staying in the area, meaning we'd look into Clawson and Berkley for our first home.

Except we were at Wixom enjoying some lunch and we loved the new construction communities and their affordable prices. If we were not expecting we wouldn't consider moving from the area we are now (Royal Oak) but with a baby on the way, and this beautiful homes with great backyards full of trees, we are in a conundrum.

Because of schools we'd consider Birmingham, but it seems we don't get much for our money, and then there is West Bloomfield which has a lot of things we are attracted to but Wixom and West bloomfield would be non walkable for us, and that is a big deal.

We obviously need to compromise walkability and availability of shopping for a better place to live, but my question is, is it worth it??

At the end, we end up using the car for everything but we love the walkability that the Royal Oak area has to offer.

We seek your advice because we obviously do not know how much our lives will change with baby.

We like schools in All of these places, our budget is 300k tops but we would only consider going this high for new construction (Wixom), any other place we would not like to spend more than 250k.

My husband commutes to downtown Detroit, I'm not working as of now. We like diversity, we are pro recycling, eating local/organic, biking and being close to great parks. We don't mind getting along with snobs or not, but are liberals ourselves. We would not mind buying an apartment instead of a house if the location is amazing and the apartment is upscale.
The discussion was not about whether or not Corktown is "stable" or not, or the benefits of Northville - I've not seen one in a few months, but there are lots of topics around about whether or not moving to Detroit is good for some (it is, but probably not if you want good public schools). I think it'd be great to start another one if anyone likes; but rather, what this discussion is about is - is it wise to sacrifice walkability and charm of Royal Oak/Berkley/Clawson for the newness of Wixom or space of West Bloomfield, for someone looking for a home priced around 250k?

The person is a self-proclaimed liberal who is into stereotypical 30 year old liberal things and is about to have their first kid.

Having been in this exact same situation myself (except working in Warren instead of Downtown), we looked at WBField, we looked at Rochester Hills, we even looked at Livonia - I can say with a fair amount of confidence that SE Oakland County was the right choice for what we wanted. Now were the choices limited to either Canton or Rosedale Park, I may have picked Canton, because of schools/stability/etc., but it wasn't. There are perfectly stable neighborhoods, with top 10%ile schools, and walkable shops and restaurants, with updated - good condition homes for under 250k (under 200k if you go with Clawson), and an abundance of young liberal families (yes, we actually exist) - so that is the logical place for OP to center their search. Getting a top 5%ile school while adding 20 minutes to one's commute and living in a place where nothing is walking distance and liberals are generally treated with the disdain seen in this topic for having "crazy" ideas like sustainability in urban development, an acceptance of a variety of cultures, and limiting sprawl.. well.. to me that's not really worth it. It may be for some, and that's okay, but if a large number of people weren't embracing the benefits of inner-ring "streetcar" suburbs today, we'd see an expanding ring of blight, but instead we're getting reinvestment and, contrary to popular belief, some of this "reinvestment" is starting to spill over into Detroit, rather than the oft parroted narrative of the "issues" spilling over into the inner-ring burbs. This is a much better scenario. This is something everyone should want, even exurbanites; though there may be a few miles between us, we're all neighbors. Our successes are interdependent.
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