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Old 08-09-2017, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,587,794 times
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If Coleman Young 2 becomes a serious candidate, I am going to change my name to Colman Young, move to Detroit and run for mayor. People will not know which one to vote for and we can avoid a repeated disaster.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Back in the Mitten. Formerly NC
3,819 posts, read 5,462,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
If Coleman Young 2 becomes a serious candidate, I am going to change my name to Colman Young, move to Detroit and run for mayor. People will not know which one to vote for and we can avoid a repeated disaster.
I've purposely been ignoring most information about the election. (I can't vote, so I prefer to remain in a happy, ignorant world.) I dismissed the list of felons. I knew they didn't have a shot. But Coleman Young 2. I've been worried that he would get elected on name recognition alone. Too many people think "I've heard that name, I'll vote for him." Seriously people. History. I seriously hope he doesn't have a shot (and I do believe Duggan will be reelected). If Young is somehow elected, with our luck, we will have one of Kwame's kids running in 20-30 years.

(Technically you should not judge a person by their parents. But I feel Detroit has reason to be more cautious than others.)
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Old 08-10-2017, 06:43 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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It really irks me how people think Duggan is doing such a great job. No. He is just reaping the reward of a city post filing bankruptcy and without the legacy cost and contracts that made running the city previous to that a no win situation. Add to that the BILLIONS of investment taking place downtown while he happens to be mayor really creates false optics.

Take a teacher in Bloomfield Hills. The teacher may be considered a good teacher because 90% of the teachers students go on to graduate from college. Based upon those statistics, it looks like the teacher is good at his job. Take that same teacher and put them in a Detroit public high school.....would they replicate the same results? Ergo, its not what the teacher is doing.....its the situation of the students backgrounds, homes and life that are the real determining factors.

In the same way, Duggan has just come into office when things are much better for Detroit. Duggan did not make those things better.....rather, bankruptcy, Illitch, Gilbert, Penske, and other business leaders are responsible for the turnaround. Now....don't get me wrong.....Duggan does add something to the table....namely...he is white. Anyone who knows anything about economics understands the role that CONFIDENCE plays. That is why the University of Michigan keeps track of "consumer sentiment/confidence". A white Mayor changes the sentiment/confidence of many whites, especially when the alternative is black, which always seems to be associated with incompetence and corruption.

I can guarantee that if Detroit had a black mayor now......Detroit would not be seen as the comeback city the way it does with the white mayor. There would still be doubt in peoples mind about whether the city can really comeback......more doubt than exists under Duggan. People would fear incompetence and corruption derailing the city and progress. However, how many Detroit mayors, aside from Kwame, were convicted of corruption? There was actually a presentation in the Free Press, some years back, showing how Coleman Young had the best fiscally managed city in the last 50 years. However, he did not inspire confidence in whites...quite the opposite because he was brash and outspoken about the REAL racial injustices. You do not inspire confidence by pointing out such truths about the black experience. You only inspire resentment.

Don't get me wrong. I hope Duggan wins because I think right now he is the best qualified, in my opinion, out of those running. However, if Duggan were Mayor 10 or more years ago.....he would have had no more success than Dayne Walling had in Flint.

Kwame is NOT a microcosm of Detroit's black leadership!!!

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-10-2017 at 07:03 AM..
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,587,794 times
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The executive at every level (National. State, County, City etc. Generally takes the blame or gets the credit for the overall well being or lack thereof regardless of whether they did anything that actually caused the positive or negative trend. Teachers are much that way as well. (Lawyers too, often get credit or blame for results they really could not influence much).

Duggan does get credit for positive things he had nothing to do with. At the same time he has been responsible for a lot of positive things. To me the fact the Detroit population elected a white mayor says a lot of positive things about the mostly Black population of Detroit. They chose the best qualified candidate to try to lead the city out of the mess it was in rather than rejecting any candidate who was white. I think it was pretty clear many people from the white suburbs were surprised by this (and their preconceived notions about the City were partially proven wrong). Duggan did do a lot of good things. He pushed hard to get the street lights back on and to restore city services. He has kept the City on a more positive track if by no other means than avoiding scandal and apparently reducing graft.

Although I do not want to accept it, it is probably true Duggan gets more credit or positive attention because he is white - at least from some sources. Although Bing got a lot of credit and positive attention, especially at first. Anyone who does not get into the corruption and graft of the past 40 or 50 years is likely to get positive attention and get credit for a lot more than they actually do.

The fact is the mayor alone cannot do a whole lot. They can push for things, usually a pet project or three, but they generally cannot make it happen all by themselves. Overall positive direction of the City is not attributable to the mayor, although he helps or at least stops the mayors office from being an impediment to positive change. They can hire better people which I think Duggan has done. However like every executive at every level, a lot more of what goes on is attributed to them that they are actually involved with. The council gets less credit (and blame) than it deserves. So does the staff. The Executive always gets credit and blame for things he really has no control over.

There is no question in my mind that Duggan remains the best candidate interested in the position right now. If a black leader with he right qualifications popped up, it would be great to change at the next election cycle. A black mayor is more likely to have a better understanding of issues faced by mostly black Detroit residents and how to address them. A black mayor who is not corrupt and accomplishes would help dissuade unfounded notions amongst many people in the suburbs. The problem int he past was nto the race of leader, but their background and purpose in running for mayor.
There is little doubt Duggan wants to move up to a State or Federal position anyway. Detroit just needs a good Black leader to step up next time. I am not sure whom exactly that would be, but I would support Rod Miller, or possibly Larry Brinker Jr. (not sure whether Brinker lives in Detroit though). There are a few other Detroit business people I have met that I think would be a good mayor for the city. There is a lady from Rosedale neighborhood who runs several businesses, but her true love is a non-profit that fixes up homes for lower income people to live in. I cannot remember her name, but I once knew enough about her to believe she would make a very good mayor. There are lots of good leaders in Detroit who are not power hungry or trying to plunder the City for the benefit of themselves or their friends. Many good, service oriented people are qualified for the position, but they are not stepping up and running (probably in part because they are doing well in their profession and do not want a pay cut for doing what is in many ways a demanding, horrible, thankless job. (Can you imagine being mayor with kids and having reporters following your kids around at school, waiting for them to mess up or say or do something controversial?).

Qualified Detroiters are out there, they just do not seem to want to be mayor, or think they cannot. Hopefully next time someone will step up. The City needs someone with business acumen and a heart for service, not a career politician or someone who just wants to put on a show (or milk money out of the City coffers for them and their friends).
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,930,929 times
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Parts of me was hoping Duggan would toss his hat in the Governor's race next year, because that appears to be an absolute crap-show at this point with a total of 0 potential candidates appealing to me so far, but right now the City of Detroit is at a critical point where it really needs the continued assurance of non-corruption and trust from its leadership. For many, that's what Duggan represents, and after the years of Kwame that's really a huge part of what Detroit needs. Lots of the recovery is organic and happening due to improvements in society, the economy, the state, and the nation, but unlike prior periods where city leadership hampered the ability of Detroit to improve, Duggan has been proactive and helped facilitate this improvement.

Is Duggan the greatest leader in the whole world? Pfft. Obviously not, and nobody is saying that, but he's a proven-competent leader. He's proven that he's placing interest in the city ahead of interest in self. He has overseen 3 (going on 4) of the most successful years Detroit has had in decades. That's really tough to reject in favor of a guy whose grand plans for the city include 2-person "skyTran" hyperloops and magical insurance policies. I don't think Young II is corrupt, rather I believe he's simply not a very competent leader. The best thing he has going for him is name recognition, because he changed his name. Forgive me if I'm not terribly impressed with that.

If someone more competent puts together a compelling campaign in 2021, then I'm all for that and I give zero craps about the person's race. I'd love to see the most competent and trustworthy leader win. This year, no challenger did that, and Duggan needs to be reelected to assure continued improvements in Detroit, both Greater Downtown and in the outer neighborhoods, because regardless of if he is personally responsible for them or not he helps inspire outside confidence in a renewing city.
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:38 AM
 
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Yeah....Mayors are like Presidents and QB's.....in that they get credit and blame for things that they are really not responsible for creating. Yes, you can say that Duggan is responsible for doing some good things, but you can also say that about every mayor Detroit has had the last 50 years. Again, I am not trying to knock Duggan, but rather, just pointing out that that the turn around Detroit is experiencing is not a product of him being mayor.

In regards to corruption......no one is officially corrupt until proven such. Again, Kwame was an aberration and not the norm, but it seems like he is presented as the microcosm of what has been wrong with the past leadership. Many, many people blame Detroit's decline on poor leadership and citizen incompetence for not choosing better leaders.

I don't think black people vote based upon color, but rather, interest. Blacks have historically had to choose from white candidates. It's hardly an adjustment to vote for a white person. The assumption, however, is that a black person would theoretically be more in tune with understanding and hence representing the interest of blacks.....too. I mean, blacks would not vote for a black republican as mayor, notwithstanding the candidate being black. Duggan got the black vote because things had dropped so low for blacks in the city, under black leadership, that it burst the bubble that black leadership was a solution to the cities problems. Black leadership did mitigate a lot of issues.....but not the investment and economic ones.
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:57 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Parts of me was hoping Duggan would toss his hat in the Governor's race next year, because that appears to be an absolute crap-show at this point with a total of 0 potential candidates appealing to me so far, but right now the City of Detroit is at a critical point where it really needs the continued assurance of non-corruption and trust from its leadership. For many, that's what Duggan represents, and after the years of Kwame that's really a huge part of what Detroit needs. Lots of the recovery is organic and happening due to improvements in society, the economy, the state, and the nation, but unlike prior periods where city leadership hampered the ability of Detroit to improve, Duggan has been proactive and helped facilitate this improvement.

Is Duggan the greatest leader in the whole world? Pfft. Obviously not, and nobody is saying that, but he's a proven-competent leader. He's proven that he's placing interest in the city ahead of interest in self. He has overseen 3 (going on 4) of the most successful years Detroit has had in decades. That's really tough to reject in favor of a guy whose grand plans for the city include 2-person "skyTran" hyperloops and magical insurance policies. I don't think Young II is corrupt, rather I believe he's simply not a very competent leader. The best thing he has going for him is name recognition, because he changed his name. Forgive me if I'm not terribly impressed with that.

If someone more competent puts together a compelling campaign in 2021, then I'm all for that and I give zero craps about the person's race. I'd love to see the most competent and trustworthy leader win. This year, no challenger did that, and Duggan needs to be reelected to assure continued improvements in Detroit, both Greater Downtown and in the outer neighborhoods, because regardless of if he is personally responsible for them or not he helps inspire outside confidence in a renewing city.
First off, Cockrell and Bing were mayors prior to Duggan, not Kwame. Why do you consider Duggan a cleansing period for Detroit....and not the years of Cockrell and Bing? Kwame was nearly 10 years ago and prior to that there was Archer and Young. Yet, Kwame seems to loom large in the minds of people. Again, he is not a microcosm of Detroit's past leadership...and or problems.

Secondly, you don't know that Duggan is clean and free from corruption. Why is there this assumption that Duggan is squeaky clean? Kwame was not corrupt until his corruption was brought uncovered. Kwame went many years without being tried for corruption. In other words, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The thing is this, however. It's called perception. Some people just assume corruption or incompetence, or no corruption and competence, based upon nothing more than outward appearance. The FBI was salivating, as Coleman Young would say, to get some type of corruption case against him. I mean, you have to go looking for corruption to find it.....and if people are just assuming Duggan is this clean cut leader.....then nobody is looking.

Finally, Duggan is not a proven competent leader leader because HE IS NOT TAKING THE SAME TEST! This is not Detroit Circa 2007. We are not in a national recession. The state is not in Depression. The city is not burdened with union contracts and legacy cost from retirees. Businesses are not divesting from the city or nearly going bankrupt. The fact that he gets a higher grade on the test is because its a lot easier test. He is NOT more competent than other leaders......he just has an easier job than they did.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,587,794 times
Reputation: 32943
Bing and Cockrel were also handicapped by an irrational council. Duggan is not. still neither of them seemed to try all that hard. Bing did at first but then seemed to give up when he could not get anywhere. Getting a consensus so you can try to accomplish something is very difficult and was more so then than now. He was also faced with an entrenched city staff used to following certain practices. He was able to pick away at some of that which helped Duggan later, but Bing could only get things started. He wasn't there long enough to reap the benefits of anything he did mange to start changing. Cockrel I do not remember getting anything done. HE was a very nice guy who was into comic books and got called Shrek by a loon, but otherwise, I can think of nothing he left as a legacy. However I do not think he was actually allowed to do anything anyway.

I think Duggan was a proven leader before he became mayor and he has demonstrated considerable competence and backbone since. Whether his overall reign will be deemed a success remains to be seen. But he will be given credit both for what he accomplishes and for what happens (good or bad) without his influence or involvement. There is no way to separate such things. Would Gilbert have done as much with a different mayor? Maybe, maybe not. One thing that did happen under Duggan is the City moved somewhat form being a (sometimes insurmountable) obstacle, to being somewhat helpful to development.

I think Duggan decided not to run for governor becasue the time is not ripe. Either too strong of competition from the Democrat side, or (I believe more likely) recognition it will be very difficult for a democrat to win right now and if they did win, they would not be able to get anything done. He may also want ot build more of a track record as mayor first. Or he may have his eye on some other position.

I think most people were aware of Kwame's corruption long before he was officially accused or convicted, especially people involved in the City. Read the testimony of some of the witnesses involved. They certainly knew from the beginning and the smart ones stayed away. I think people pretty well knew of corruption in the Coleman Young administration even if there never was a prosecution and conviction.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:10 AM
 
12,486 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Bing and Cockrel were also handicapped by an irrational council. Duggan is not. still neither of them seemed to try all that hard. Bing did at first but then seemed to give up when he could not get anywhere. Getting a consensus so you can try to accomplish something is very difficult and was more so then than now. He was also faced with an entrenched city staff used to following certain practices. He was able to pick away at some of that which helped Duggan later, but Bing could only get things started. He wasn't there long enough to reap the benefits of anything he did mange to start changing. Cockrel I do not remember getting anything done. HE was a very nice guy who was into comic books and got called Shrek by a loon, but otherwise, I can think of nothing he left as a legacy. However I do not think he was actually allowed to do anything anyway.

I think Duggan was a proven leader before he became mayor and he has demonstrated considerable competence and backbone since. Whether his overall reign will be deemed a success remains to be seen. But he will be given credit both for what he accomplishes and for what happens (good or bad) without his influence or involvement. There is no way to separate such things. Would Gilbert have done as much with a different mayor? Maybe, maybe not. One thing that did happen under Duggan is the City moved somewhat form being a (sometimes insurmountable) obstacle, to being somewhat helpful to development.

I think Duggan decided not to run for governor becasue the time is not ripe. Either too strong of competition from the Democrat side, or (I believe more likely) recognition it will be very difficult for a democrat to win right now and if they did win, they would not be able to get anything done. He may also want ot build more of a track record as mayor first. Or he may have his eye on some other position.

I think most people were aware of Kwame's corruption long before he was officially accused or convicted, especially people involved in the City. Read the testimony of some of the witnesses involved. They certainly knew from the beginning and the smart ones stayed away. I think people pretty well knew of corruption in the Coleman Young administration even if there never was a prosecution and conviction.
Corruption is often a smoke screen used to deflect from the real reasons that Detroit declined. If there is no indictments......then there was no corruption. I think Chief Hart, the police chief during part of the Young years, was found guilty of some sort of corruption...but that was never linked to Coleman Young. I do not believe that Coleman Young was a corrupt politician at all. People just did not like him for the same reason that many posters do not like me.......because I point out things that people don't like being pointed out. There was a period when, at least in appearance, black mayors were being targeted and investigated by the FBI. Coleman Young was from a generation, I believe, that truly was for the uplift of black people. He knew that the FEDS were trying to get him. He said so on many occasions. Hence, it would be absolutely asinine of him, being the first black mayor of Detroit, to tarnish the image of black leadership by being corrupt......especially when he knew that people were watching his every move. Yet, despite this people seem to think he was corrupt. I doubt that very seriously and again.......if nothing is proven then a person should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. Duggan gets that benefit.....why not Coleman?
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
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Bing and Cockrell were certainly handed a much, much more difficult slate to work with than Duggan. I've heard good things about Bing and not much bad. Had Bing not declined to run in 2013 he may have been elected and proven to have been a very competent mayor during the 2014-2017 period and possibly beyond, but being the mayor of a city that declared bankruptcy (admittedly largely through little/no fault of his) certainly would have been a difficult image for Bing to overcome. I don't know much about Cockrell, so I can't really comment on that other than to say that taking over from Kwame, and running the city from Late-2008 to Mid 2009 couldn't have been an easy situation. I can undersatnd why Bing was elected in the 2009 special-election.

There's reason Kwame looms on people's mind. The guy was a disaster. No, Loving/Young II isn't Kwame, nor is anyone suggesting that he is. Nor is anyone suggesting that Bing or Cockrell were, and I don't know enough about Young I to say anything about his ethics. Right or wrong aside, the perception that most people in the region, and even the nation had, is that Detroit was a hot bed of corrupt politics. Perception matters, a lot, regardless of if it's real or not. We see that all the time in the media. Duggan is perceived as a competent mayor not only in the region, but nationally as well, and Detroit is perceived as a city with a future, no longer hamstrung by the issues you've mentioned. This invites investment.

If Loving/Young II is elected, will things go to crap? No, probably not, there is a lot of good going on in Detroit from investment to lower leadership positions, but it would indeed be disappointing to see Detroit elect the skyTram/magical-insurance guy, who will constantly be compared to his namesake, whose whole name-switcheroo thing really doesn't settle well with most, and whose campaign seems to only center around the idea of "Two Detroits" (which there is admittedly validity to, but validity which the incumbent addresses), over the incumbent who has again - through admittedly the work of many, many people - himself included, overseen the City of Detroit's most successful 4 years in decades.
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