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Old 08-10-2017, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Back in the Mitten. Formerly NC
3,819 posts, read 5,462,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
It really irks me how people think Duggan is doing such a great job. No. He is just reaping the reward of a city post filing bankruptcy and without the legacy cost and contracts that made running the city previous to that a no win situation. Add to that the BILLIONS of investment taking place downtown while he happens to be mayor really creates false optics.

Take a teacher in Bloomfield Hills. The teacher may be considered a good teacher because 90% of the teachers students go on to graduate from college. Based upon those statistics, it looks like the teacher is good at his job. Take that same teacher and put them in a Detroit public high school.....would they replicate the same results? Ergo, its not what the teacher is doing.....its the situation of the students backgrounds, homes and life that are the real determining factors.

In the same way, Duggan has just come into office when things are much better for Detroit. Duggan did not make those things better.....rather, bankruptcy, Illitch, Gilbert, Penske, and other business leaders are responsible for the turnaround. Now....don't get me wrong.....Duggan does add something to the table....namely...he is white. Anyone who knows anything about economics understands the role that CONFIDENCE plays. That is why the University of Michigan keeps track of "consumer sentiment/confidence". A white Mayor changes the sentiment/confidence of many whites, especially when the alternative is black, which always seems to be associated with incompetence and corruption.

I can guarantee that if Detroit had a black mayor now......Detroit would not be seen as the comeback city the way it does with the white mayor. There would still be doubt in peoples mind about whether the city can really comeback......more doubt than exists under Duggan. People would fear incompetence and corruption derailing the city and progress. However, how many Detroit mayors, aside from Kwame, were convicted of corruption? There was actually a presentation in the Free Press, some years back, showing how Coleman Young had the best fiscally managed city in the last 50 years. However, he did not inspire confidence in whites...quite the opposite because he was brash and outspoken about the REAL racial injustices. You do not inspire confidence by pointing out such truths about the black experience. You only inspire resentment.

Don't get me wrong. I hope Duggan wins because I think right now he is the best qualified, in my opinion, out of those running. However, if Duggan were Mayor 10 or more years ago.....he would have had no more success than Dayne Walling had in Flint.

Kwame is NOT a microcosm of Detroit's black leadership!!!
Duggan is imperfect, and I believe most people feel that way. If there was a more qualified person, I'm sure Duggan would no longer have a shot. But there isn't a more qualified person in the running. He is the best option. While imperfect, and partially reaping benefits he happened upon by chance, he is the best mayor Detroit has seen in many years. It works both ways- Trump supporters love to say how great the economy is or whatever when it has absolutely nothing to do with Trump. He hasn't been in office long enough, not to mention he hasn't managed to put any new policies into place.

Things are not as cut-and dry as you'd like them to seem. Going back to your teaching example. Just like individuals- teachers have strengths and weaknesses. I worked with a teacher who could do amazing things with struggling readers. Ask her to teach reading to the gifted students in the same school, same grade level, and she was mediocre at best. Most of the students remained stagnant, or they even went down in their percentile ranges. I think what you are trying to say is that you can put a terrible teacher in a classroom in Bloomfield and their students will still look successful on paper, where if you put a terrible teacher in a classroom in Detroit, it will be evident. There are many truly talented teachers who would struggle in an inner city environment. That doesn't mean they are bad teachers.

Relating that back to politics- Duggan's timing has helped with his success, no doubt. However, not everyone would have been as successful as he has been. It takes both- timing and ability.
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:05 PM
 
12,490 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Bing and Cockrell were certainly handed a much, much more difficult slate to work with than Duggan. I've heard good things about Bing and not much bad. Had Bing not declined to run in 2013 he may have been elected and proven to have been a very competent mayor during the 2014-2017 period and possibly beyond, but being the mayor of a city that declared bankruptcy (admittedly largely through little/no fault of his) certainly would have been a difficult image for Bing to overcome. I don't know much about Cockrell, so I can't really comment on that other than to say that taking over from Kwame, and running the city from Late-2008 to Mid 2009 couldn't have been an easy situation. I can undersatnd why Bing was elected in the 2009 special-election.

There's reason Kwame looms on people's mind. The guy was a disaster. No, Loving/Young II isn't Kwame, nor is anyone suggesting that he is. Nor is anyone suggesting that Bing or Cockrell were, and I don't know enough about Young I to say anything about his ethics. Right or wrong aside, the perception that most people in the region, and even the nation had, is that Detroit was a hot bed of corrupt politics. Perception matters, a lot, regardless of if it's real or not. We see that all the time in the media. Duggan is perceived as a competent mayor not only in the region, but nationally as well, and Detroit is perceived as a city with a future, no longer hamstrung by the issues you've mentioned. This invites investment.

If Loving/Young II is elected, will things go to crap? No, probably not, there is a lot of good going on in Detroit from investment to lower leadership positions, but it would indeed be disappointing to see Detroit elect the skyTram/magical-insurance guy, who will constantly be compared to his namesake, whose whole name-switcheroo thing really doesn't settle well with most, and whose campaign seems to only center around the idea of "Two Detroits" (which there is admittedly validity to, but validity which the incumbent addresses), over the incumbent who has again - through admittedly the work of many, many people - himself included, overseen the City of Detroit's most successful 4 years in decades.
If Coleman Young 2 gets elected.....it would not be called a disappointment....but rather, democracy. Like I said, at this point, Duggan is the more experienced and qualified candidate by far. Unfortunately, his optics alone helps boost confidence in the city, which helps boost business investment and people relocating into the city. What's unfortunate about that is that the main optics that is driving this is his color.....and perception about race. I mean, there has been only one black mayor since 73....found guilty of corruption.....yet, the leadership since 73 is seen as corrupt and or incompetent. Again, not getting the benefit of innocence until PROVEN guilty, but rather, guilty until proven innocent. Duggan comes along and right away he is assumed cut from a different ethical cloth....one of innocence and goodness.

Duggan is like Obama in that Obama inspired hope and confidence in a lot of black people, Duggan does so for white people. Duggan is the first white Mayor of Detroit in generations and a lot of whites feel the cities future is brighter just because of that....which can manifest into a self fulfilling prophecy....just like it became a self fulfilling prophecy when they thought that black leadership would destroy it. So they divested and presto....it went down. This is the power of psychology and perception in economics.....as much of economics is self fulfilling prophecy. Having confidence or optimism in something boost investment in that something which makes it more likely that the confidence/optimism will be produce a positive outcome. Pessimism works in reverse because in that it results in no investment, if not divestment, which makes failure more likely. Black leadership.....the perception of it is negative.......so Duggan can do what an equally capable and qualified black mayor could not do for no other reason than perception and the self fulfilling prophecies that result from the conspiracy of like minds.

That having been said......if Duggan does not quickly get out front in improving the economics of blacks in Detroit, meaning that Detroit is drifting to a city with the optics of a largely poor black population and a well to do white population.....then the city is going to revisit the type of tension that led to the 67 uprising.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-10-2017 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 1,931,470 times
Reputation: 3554
I can't speak much for 1973, I wasn't alive then. Please understand that I find it entirely absurd when you try to attribute attitudes from 1973 to me, in 2017. Obama is a good comparison. I too was quite inspired by Obama. He gave me hope and confidence in a nation whose economy was reeling in 2008. I remember thinking, "Thank God I'm in college still, because there's no way I'd get a job right now." 2009 was rough, but things did turn around. I graduated in 2011 and had job offers waiting. A lot of this may have happened anyway, but Obama was a competent leader who helped facilitate this through optimal executive policy decisions and inspiring confidence in the business world. I believe history will look kindly upon the Obama presidency. Duggan is in a similar situation for the City of Detroit. Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, you're really forcing the race card here. Outside of some hardcore alt-right Trumpers, I don't believe Obama is viewed as failed leadership or corrupt by White people or Asian people or Hispanic people.

I too agree that Duggan needs to quickly get on the matter of further improving life in neighborhoods, but in order to do that the image of the city needed to change and the city needed an economic anchor or it would slowly drift back into the economic situation it had discharged through bankruptcy. It has that anchor now and it will grow naturally. Small investments are happening in neighborhoods, those investments need to be larger, and more frequent. Neighborhoods have benefited from reliable services and operational parks, working lights, better than average emergency response times, significant blight removal, and a handful are seeing entire neighborhood rehabs.

Is this the same level of improvement seen in Greater Downtown? No. It isn't, but it's also not complete neglect. It's a level of improvement that wasn't a sure thing in 2013. Would it have happened with Mayor Bing or Mayor Cockrell in a post-bankruptcy world? Maybe, but that's speculative. We know it did happen/is happening with Mayor Duggan. Is it perfect? No. Is it good? Well, I don't live within the city limits maybe an actual Detroiter can chime in on their perspective, but I can tell you that from my perspective, 3 miles north of the city limits, it seems pretty good.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,587,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
If there is no indictments......then there was no corruption.
First I think you mean conviction. Indictments do not mean anything, it is just a formal accusation. Or do you believe anyone who is charged is guilty? A surprising number of people do, go watch jury voir dire in criminal matters and you will see it often.

So would you say where no cops were indicted or convicted in many of the recent highly publicized and/or recorded shootings, they are innocent of murder or manslaughter or any wrongdoing for that matter? No indictment/conviction = they are innocent. Further you would say Al Capone's only crime was tax fraud. Otherwise he was an upright citizen and history has treated him unfairly. What about good old OJ Simpson? He was acquitted by a criminal jury then found to have murdered his wife by a civil jury. Does that make him innocent?

I know (or more so knew) of corruption in the Yong administration. I do not know of any in the Duggan administration. I have also been told by people whose judgement I trust and rely on about corruption int eh Yong administration. Not so with Duggan. So, to my knowledge, Yong was involved in corrupotion and Duggan was not. I do not need an indictment to recognize a crime when I see it. It does not have to be a technical crime to be corruption to me either. Just because they fond a loophole, does not make it moral to cheat, accept bribes that are not strictly bribes, or take money from the City coffers.

For example, a bribe does not have to be a cash payment. It can be an investment tip n the hallway after a meeting which the tipper or his boss then ensures becomes a very successful investment. The quid pro quo is never even spoken, but it is understood. Is that not corruption? It is not technically illegal, at least not in a way that will ever be exposed.

I do not care whether it is legal or illegal, indicted or not. A politician who becomes rich having never been anything but a politician - is corrupt. Honest politics is not a road to riches. No not even if they became rich by people with an interest in their decisions paying them $250,000 to give a poorly written and delivered 20 minute speech, or ensuring their book becomes a best seller, rather than outright bribery. Taking money or tips or anything for political favor is corruption to me period.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:30 PM
 
12,490 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
I can't speak much for 1973, I wasn't alive then. Please understand that I find it entirely absurd when you try to attribute attitudes from 1973 to me, in 2017. Obama is a good comparison. I too was quite inspired by Obama. He gave me hope and confidence in a nation whose economy was reeling in 2008. I remember thinking, "Thank God I'm in college still, because there's no way I'd get a job right now." 2009 was rough, but things did turn around. I graduated in 2011 and had job offers waiting. A lot of this may have happened anyway, but Obama was a competent leader who helped facilitate this through optimal executive policy decisions and inspiring confidence in the business world. I believe history will look kindly upon the Obama presidency. Duggan is in a similar situation for the City of Detroit. Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, you're really forcing the race card here. Outside of some hardcore alt-right Trumpers, I don't believe Obama is viewed as failed leadership or corrupt by White people or Asian people or Hispanic people.

I too agree that Duggan needs to quickly get on the matter of further improving life in neighborhoods, but in order to do that the image of the city needed to change and the city needed an economic anchor or it would slowly drift back into the economic situation it had discharged through bankruptcy. It has that anchor now and it will grow naturally. Small investments are happening in neighborhoods, those investments need to be larger, and more frequent. Neighborhoods have benefited from reliable services and operational parks, working lights, better than average emergency response times, significant blight removal, and a handful are seeing entire neighborhood rehabs.

Is this the same level of improvement seen in Greater Downtown? No. It isn't, but it's also not complete neglect. It's a level of improvement that wasn't a sure thing in 2013. Would it have happened with Mayor Bing or Mayor Cockrell in a post-bankruptcy world? Maybe, but that's speculative. We know it did happen/is happening with Mayor Duggan. Is it perfect? No. Is it good? Well, I don't live within the city limits maybe an actual Detroiter can chime in on their perspective, but I can tell you that from my perspective, 3 miles north of the city limits, it seems pretty good.
I am responding to you.....but not talking about YOU. When I speak or make an observation it may be triggered by something a poster said.....but my response is based upon EVERYTHING I have ever heard, read or witnessed as it relates to whats being discussed. I am over 50 now and I remember very well the attitudes and comments of people over the last 40 years, as well as the last 10 years. The more data you have the easier it is to see the patterns. You have not lived long enough to see the patterns that I see......no offense.....because you are not old enough and have not been in the Detroit area that long (although I do not currently live in the Detroit area).

Detroit's decline, for a long time, has been blamed on its black leadership and citizens who keep electing incompetent and corrupt leadership. Not de-industrialization, not white flight, not racism, not legacy cost, etc. Crime and corruption was the blame. Thus, for a person like me, who has witnessed this history and understand the context of the racial history of this nation that it takes place in......I fully understand the optics of a Mike Duggan and how those optics are valuable in inspiring confidence in the white populous that is so needed for Detroit comeback......for it was primary that Demographic who abandoned the city resulting in its decline.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:35 PM
 
12,490 posts, read 7,590,730 times
Reputation: 4755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
First I think you mean conviction. Indictments do not mean anything, it is just a formal accusation. Or do you believe anyone who is charged is guilty? A surprising number of people do, go watch jury voir dire in criminal matters and you will see it often.

So would you say where no cops were indicted or convicted in many of the recent highly publicized and/or recorded shootings, they are innocent of murder or manslaughter or any wrongdoing for that matter? No indictment/conviction = they are innocent. Further you would say Al Capone's only crime was tax fraud. Otherwise he was an upright citizen and history has treated him unfairly. What about good old OJ Simpson? He was acquitted by a criminal jury then found to have murdered his wife by a civil jury. Does that make him innocent?

I know (or more so knew) of corruption in the Yong administration. I do not know of any in the Duggan administration. I have also been told by people whose judgement I trust and rely on about corruption int eh Yong administration. Not so with Duggan. So, to my knowledge, Yong was involved in corrupotion and Duggan was not. I do not need an indictment to recognize a crime when I see it. It does not have to be a technical crime to be corruption to me either. Just because they fond a loophole, does not make it moral to cheat, accept bribes that are not strictly bribes, or take money from the City coffers.

For example, a bribe does not have to be a cash payment. It can be an investment tip n the hallway after a meeting which the tipper or his boss then ensures becomes a very successful investment. The quid pro quo is never even spoken, but it is understood. Is that not corruption? It is not technically illegal, at least not in a way that will ever be exposed.

I do not care whether it is legal or illegal, indicted or not. A politician who becomes rich having never been anything but a politician - is corrupt. Honest politics is not a road to riches. No not even if they became rich by people with an interest in their decisions paying them $250,000 to give a poorly written and delivered 20 minute speech, or ensuring their book becomes a best seller, rather than outright bribery. Taking money or tips or anything for political favor is corruption to me period.
My memory may escape me but the point I was making was that no other Mayor has even been indicted, for corruption. I did not mean conviction. I know Coleman Young was heavily investigated for corruption as he said so on many occasions. Thus, why do so many people assume Coleman Young was corrupt and he was never even indicted....to my knowledge?
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Old 08-10-2017, 05:37 PM
 
Location: my little town
1,560 posts, read 537,479 times
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The War on Drugs is part of the wrecking ball that swung through the nation's cities. A drug conviction may be seen as a sign of legitimacy to voters.
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
1,527 posts, read 1,462,848 times
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Dugan deserves the credit that he has gotten since being mayor, it's not just good timing! I don't know why some people must always make it a race issue, it just comes off as racist and insecure! It seems the only reason that a certain someone has a problem with him is because The mayor is white and not black, that is perfectly obvious after reading so many of his posts!
I believe that Dugan is successful because he is very competent, not because he is white!

Last edited by North 42; 08-11-2017 at 06:03 AM..
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,759 posts, read 65,587,794 times
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I think the point was that he is successful, but gets credit for more than he is responsible for due to the timing. He happened to become mayor during a recovery period for the city. Thus, while he has clearly helped the recovery along, he is not responsible for as much as he is given credit. It think this is accurate. This is true of every executive political position, from a township supervisor to the President.

He also may well get better or more favorable coverage from media and more favor from suburbanites because he is white. And yes, it very likely does give some white suburbanites a bit of relief to see that mostly black Detroit elected a white mayor. Not because they prefer to see a white mayor in Detroit, but because it disproves the fairly common perception that Detroit hates white people. They chose the most qualified candidate who happened to be white, rather than voting based on race.
That very well may make some people who were on the edge more comfortable about investing in, moving to, working in, or visiting the City. Is it going to make a difference for a ton of people? No. Some? Undoubtedly.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:53 AM
 
12,490 posts, read 7,590,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
Dugan deserves the credit that he has gotten since being mayor, it's not just good timing! I don't know why some people must always make it a race issue, it just comes off as racist and insecure! It seems the only reason that a certain someone has a problem with him is because The mayor is white and not black, that is perfectly obvious after reading so many of his posts!
I believe that Dugan is successful because he is very competent, not because he is white!

It can rain for forty days and forty nights, flooding the land. However, there are those who will dismiss the role the rain played in the failed crops of a farmer because they are vested and tied to the belief that the farmer is incompetent. The rain is seen as "an excuse" to deflect from the farmers incompetence.

A new farmer then takes over the land...once the rain has stopped and the flooding subsided. The new farmer crops rise above the ground. "Oh what a competent farmer", the man says. "Not like the other farmer".

There are numerous studies....and you can google them yourself......that reveal that many people see blacks as less intelligent. It stands to reason that such beliefs translates to viewing black leadership as less competent. I mean....if a black person has a good job or is at the University of Michigan or Harvard......how often do people assume that it is because of Affirmative Action or some special effort to give blacks a break over more qualified applicants? Race does matter in the way people perceive your abilities. No doubt that people see a black person as more likely to be able to run fast and jump high....or dance. Those are the beliefs that seem to favor blacks. However, they are a package deal with the ones that disfavor blacks, like intelligence, propensity for violence and corruption, etc.

I am not making this stuff up. If you study America....you will KNOW its racial biases. All you need is a keen grasp of the obvious. All I have done is applied this knowledge in the juxtaposing of Detroit's current mayors with the previous ones. I mean "half of Detroits 8 mayoral candidates having criminal backgrounds" certainly plays into this narrative.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 08-11-2017 at 08:19 AM..
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