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Here's the issue: my fiance works in a specialized field as a chemist. There aren't a ton of jobs doing what she does anywhere. In Detroit, the going rate is around $50k. The national average is $80k per the BLS. What is the incentive for her to continue to make 25% less than the going rate? What is the appeal? When all of your friends have left and it's just you, what is there to gain?
To continue with Jakebarnes's Chicago comparison, my question is where is Detroit's Lakeview? Where is it's Lincoln Park? Where is it's Wicker Park? Where's the Edgewater or Ravenswood or Bucktown or North Center, etc etc etc etc? All of those neighborhoods alone have as much going on as a Ferndale or Midtown Detroit or an Ann Arbor and they are all connected to each other with quality public transportation between them. What is cool and fun here is concentrated in a few areas, your giant house in Novi that cost less than a Boston-area condo is 40 minutes away from some cool Corktown brunch spot or Midtown bar... plus the culture of the place isn't really aligned with that kind of lifestyle. There's a reason that Michigan, unique to states with big cities, had a college bar in Ann Arbor as it's most Ubered to destination, people here don't rideshare and seem to live very closed off lives in closed off suburbs for the most part. This isn't appealing to anyone who thinks themselves urbane or cultured under the age of 40, which would probably cover most highly educated people.
Personally, to me happiness comes from within. A positive adjusted individual will find friends, fun and happiness any and everywhere. Are you mad at the millions of individuals and families that do call Metro Detroit their home and enjoy it here?
I’m not mad at anyone. You’re the one who seems to be mad about something.. lol. I just find it kind of funny when people are surprised about the fact that metro Detroit isn’t a very desirable area.
Here's the issue: my fiance works in a specialized field as a chemist. There aren't a ton of jobs doing what she does anywhere. In Detroit, the going rate is around $50k. The national average is $80k per the BLS. What is the incentive for her to continue to make 25% less than the going rate? What is the appeal? When all of your friends have left and it's just you, what is there to gain?
To continue with Jakebarnes's Chicago comparison, my question is where is Detroit's Lakeview? Where is it's Lincoln Park? Where is it's Wicker Park? Where's the Edgewater or Ravenswood or Bucktown or North Center, etc etc etc etc? All of those neighborhoods alone have as much going on as a Ferndale or Midtown Detroit or an Ann Arbor and they are all connected to each other with quality public transportation between them. What is cool and fun here is concentrated in a few areas, your giant house in Novi that cost less than a Boston-area condo is 40 minutes away from some cool Corktown brunch spot or Midtown bar... plus the culture of the place isn't really aligned with that kind of lifestyle. There's a reason that Michigan, unique to states with big cities, had a college bar in Ann Arbor as it's most Ubered to destination, people here don't rideshare and seem to live very closed off lives in closed off suburbs for the most part. This isn't appealing to anyone who thinks themselves urbane or cultured under the age of 40, which would probably cover most highly educated people.
So you do not have a family yet is what you are saying.
The amusing underlying statement in this post is only stupid/uneducated people live in Michigan. Pretty wrong there sorry.
Warren-Troy-Farmington Hills, Michigan is one of the few northern metros in the top 10, landing on the list due mainly to its proximity to Detroit and the auto industry. GM and Chrysler claim facilities in Warren, while Nissan and Hitachi Automotive Systems America have plants in Farmington Hills.
Ann arbor is the most educated city in the USA. east Lansing is also in the top 20. Grand Rapids is in the top 100.
(But I thought anyone with an education left Michigan?)
You clearly have not lived in downtown/midtown. But people do tend to live quieter more family oriented lives than in some places. It is called growing up. Michigan may seem less exciting and appealing when you are still maturing but when you are tired of the games, realize the pretense of partying is not really rewarding, and want a more sane/pleasant place for raising kids, then you will return to Michigan or look for some place simlar.
I love to visit Chicago. You could not pay me enough to live there.
You fiance works in an odd field indeed. In most cases the pay difference is offset by the lower cost of living. Balancing pay rates vs cost of living Michigan usually comes out slightly better than the middle if i recall correctly.
For several years, I had the best of both worlds. LA salary with Metro Detroit cost of living and family amenities. I worked a California job from home in Michigan and flew out when necessary. this is known as telecommuting since most of your work is done at home or by phone, skype or telephone. If your fiancee eventually gets high enough up the ladder to where she can compel her employer to accept telecommuting, you can live in a beautiful house on a lake or river, or a restored mansion in the city - which you will never be able to afford in Chicago, and still rake in the Chicago or New York salary.
Most jobs are susceptible to telecommuting, even many jobs people claim are not. They actually are. I have one neighbor who is some kind of chemist for an east Coast company and has a small laboratory at his home. The cost of real estate is so much cheaper it was practical for him to do it and his company helped pay for it both to keep him and because they then needed less lab space at their main facility.
A famous chef whose wife is form Grosse Ile MI recently moved here because she wanted to come home. He runs restaurants in Las Vegas and somewhere else from here. Now he is opening a fancy place at the old coach insignia on top of the ren cen. The family appeal caught a great big fish for Michigan.
In today's computer and communication age, there is really very little that requires actual physical presence. Most of my medical appointments are now online. When I telecommuted I did court hearing, settlement conferences/meditations, depositions, argued simple motions all online. Once you have some pull in your field, you can be accommodated to live anywhere you want to as long as you have good communications available and a nearby airport.
How many people actually say that they want to move to Detroit or Metro Detroit because it’s such a nice area? The only thing keeping me and a ton of other people in Metro Detroit is steady employment. If I left, I’d take a large pay cut. The only outsiders who actually want to move here are the adventurous young types who want the percieved adventure of downtown.
You never hear people say, “I want to move to Detroit (or Metro Detroit) because of the relatively bad school systems, flat landscape, cold winters, and horrible reputation.”
This isn’t rocket science. It amazes me when people are dumbfounded when they realize people don’t want to move or live here. Relative to other metropolitan areas in the country, Detroit is likely one of the least disirable. And for good reason. Shoot, we even have to overpay our sports stars in order to lure them to Detroit.
I lived in Detroit itself for 3 years and in the Metro Detroit area for 7 years. DH is from the area I really enjoyed living there and outside of my hometown of Syracuse, NY I would say that it is the best place we have lived.
The school systems are not all bad in the Metro Detroit area. There are some very good districts and there are a few that leave some things to be desired but that is true with any city. Flat landscapes are more common across U.S. cities than are hilly ones so Detroit isn't unique in that, either. Cold winters? Pretty much all other cities in the north so take your pick there, though it's a fair tradeoff for having a 4-season climate rather than a hot climate or one that does not change at all. Chicago has cold winters, Minneapolis has cold winters, my location has cold winters and people live in these places as well.
Detroit has some positive developments going on and isn't the urban disaster zone that it's made out to be. I'm seeing quite a few more job opportunities open up there and if I were not so happy here I would seriously consider taking a job back in Metro Detroit
Out of curiosity, where WOULD be a good place to go for you?
Warren-Troy-Farmington Hills, Michigan is one of the few northern metros in the top 10, landing on the list due mainly to its proximity to Detroit and the auto industry. GM and Chrysler claim facilities in Warren, while Nissan and Hitachi Automotive Systems America have plants in Farmington Hills.
Ann arbor is the most educated city in the USA. east Lansing is also in the top 20. Grand Rapids is in the top 100.
(But I thought anyone with an education left Michigan?)
You clearly have not lived in downtown/midtown. But people do tend to live quieter more family oriented lives than in some places. It is called growing up. Michigan may seem less exciting and appealing when you are still maturing but when you are tired of the games, realize the pretense of partying is not really rewarding, and want a more sane/pleasant place for raising kids, then you will return to Michigan or look for some place simlar.
I love to visit Chicago. You could not pay me enough to live there.
You fiance works in an odd field indeed. In most cases the pay difference is offset by the lower cost of living. Balancing pay rates vs cost of living Michigan usually comes out slightly better than the middle if i recall correctly.
For several years, I had the best of both worlds. LA salary with Metro Detroit cost of living and family amenities. I worked a California job from home in Michigan and flew out when necessary. this is known as telecommuting since most of your work is done at home or by phone, skype or telephone. If your fiancee eventually gets high enough up the ladder to where she can compel her employer to accept telecommuting, you can live in a beautiful house on a lake or river, or a restored mansion in the city - which you will never be able to afford in Chicago, and still rake in the Chicago or New York salary.
Most jobs are susceptible to telecommuting, even many jobs people claim are not. They actually are. I have one neighbor who is some kind of chemist for an east Coast company and has a small laboratory at his home. The cost of real estate is so much cheaper it was practical for him to do it and his company helped pay for it both to keep him and because they then needed less lab space at their main facility.
A famous chef whose wife is form Grosse Ile MI recently moved here because she wanted to come home. He runs restaurants in Las Vegas and somewhere else from here. Now he is opening a fancy place at the old coach insignia on top of the ren cen. The family appeal caught a great big fish for Michigan.
In today's computer and communication age, there is really very little that requires actual physical presence. Most of my medical appointments are now online. When I telecommuted I did court hearing, settlement conferences/meditations, depositions, argued simple motions all online. Once you have some pull in your field, you can be accommodated to live anywhere you want to as long as you have good communications available and a nearby airport.
Thanks for knowing it all!
Is anyone surprised about Ann Arbor? Wow many people in a university town have an education?!?!?! YOU DON'T SAY No one said everyone is uneducated in Michigan.
There's a lot of engineering jobs in the metro where all domestic auto manufacturers are headquartered (and most foreign R&D)? MY MIND IS BLOWN It's called clustering and it happens in many industries. That sure doesn't help you if you aren't an engineer or don't want to work in auto manufacturing and related industries. Which is why people move other places...
People want different things at different stages in life and once young people are done with shallow things (like sunshine in California). As people get older their priorities change and they want a yard and things? I HAD NEVER REALIZED PEOPLE'S PRIORITIES CHANGE. I don't know why you are so judgy when you did it yourself.
People get homesick and come back even when they were successful somewhere else, like your chef from Las Vegas or perhaps you? YES.
People/Companies come to the midwest for cheaper real estate? ANOTHER SHOCKER.
Since this was about brain drain, here's an article showing that Michigan's brain drain is improving.
tl;dr
more domestic out-migration than domestic in-migration, but foreign in-migration was enough to make it overall positive. So Michigan is attracting foreign students and workers.
I am not trying to to s*** all over Detroit, but you guys have to be realistic.
I've noticed about the Detroit posters who are defensive use the metro area and the city interchangeably when it suits their arguments.
The METRO AREA is higher than 50 years ago. The CITY declined. This shouldn't be news to anyone who has paid any attention at all. If you want to deny that the CITY of Detroit has lost population then I don't know what to tell you.
CITY of Detroit.
1960 1,670,144 −9.7%
1970 1,514,063 −9.3%
1980 1,203,368 −20.5%
1990 1,027,974 −14.6%
2000 951,270 −7.5%
2010 713,777 −25.0%
Est. 2016 672,795 [5]
METRO Detroit (aka City of DETROIT plus the suburbs)
1950 3,219,256 26.5%
1960 4,012,607 24.6%
1970 4,490,902 11.9%
1980 4,387,783 −2.3%
1990 4,266,654 −2.8%
2000 4,441,551 4.1%
2010 4,296,250 −3.3%
Est. 2016 4,297,617 [51] 0.0%
Metropolitan areas is the widely known metric for most people especially on city-data. Detroit is hardly the only city to use it on this forum, go to the city vs city forum and see why everybody holds Atlanta or Miami to a higher tier then Indianapolis, OKC, or Jacksonville. You have to be realistic, city limits mean NOTHING now days.
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As far as comparing to other midwest cities, the suburbs of Chicago/Cleveland/Cincinnati are probably very comparable to the suburbs of Detroit. We are talking about City and urban amenties, not tract housing and malls. For example, downtown Chicago, the loop, the entire north side of Chicago. That is the comparison, not Bloomfield Hills to Evanston.
Comparing suburbs is changing the rules to suit your argument. If you think downtown Chicago and downtown Detroit are comparable, where's the Magnificent Mile? Where are the luxury shops? Where are the trains to the airport? How about a comprehensive transit system at all?
Detroit is a great place and improving but you guys need to be realistic about some of the challenges. Detroit city got abandoned basically, due to racism and the automobile. No other city was abandoned this badly. Detroit got the worst of it and everyone knows it. Years of under-investment and poor governance left it in a bad state. It is coming back and I for one am cheering for it.
The point many of us are trying to make is that if you want to increase the businesses and residents in Detroit city, there are amenities that other cities offer that Detroit doesn't. People don't come to Detroit on vacation as much as Chicago or NYC. That's a fact. That doesn't mean Detroit sucks. It just means it doesn't yet have all the attractions to get people to come visit.
I left Michigan because at the time I left I wanted to live in a big city where I didn't need a car and could walk to most things and take transit other times. I hate driving everywhere. I also had limited job opportunities in my field. For that reason, Detroit wasn't an option in the mid-90s. There's brain drain right there. It wasn't because I hate Michigan or Detroit (I love Michigan). It's because Michigan couldn't offer me what I wanted as a young adult.
Read my question again... I said "What amenities does Metro Detroit lack compared to other big cities that doesn't have to do with public transportation?"
Most big cities in America aren't downtown Chicago. And then you bought up mass transit which is obvious. And do you see how cold it is right now? I could care less about the high end shops on Michigan Ave in Chicago right now, I would rather be in Somerset or something then freezing my ass off down there.
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When I graduated I would hardly wait to the day I took off for California. I had wanted to move away for eight years already. After 18 years in California, we decided to move back to Michigan with considerable reservation. After a few years here, we wished we had moved back ten years earlier (except the smoking in restaurants would have been hard to deal with). As you grow up, you begin to see the weeds in all that green grass you so desperately wanted to get to and you realize many of the weeds you had before are actually flowers.
BTW, I had three higher paying job offers in Detroit and a way higher paying one in Cleveland when I moved to California. I went there because it was warm and exciting, not because it offered better jobs.
I wonder how many times that is repeated. Kids desperately want to get away from that Podunk place and race off to Denver, Austin, California, Chicago NYC, Pheonix, Seattle, Boston, etc within days of graduation. Then they realize what they are missing and come back. I know there are several people on CD with that story and a lot of people who live in Grosse Ile (although that is because people want their kids to have what they had growing up in GI and it cannot be found anywhere else, so they come back). Detroit/Michigan may not be all that exiting for young uns (although that is changing a little), but when you grow up and have a family, it is hard to best the mitten as a place to raise a family.
I'm 24 years old and most people I know don't have a problem finding "excitement" in Michigan. (Although I wish they would change the last call hour to 4am). People in MI like to party, a little too much imo. Obviously, most people don't get excited about a state they lived all their life in and MI is no different. But when alot of people I knew moved to Arizona, Ohio, NC, ect they complain non stop about their nightlife or music scene or the place being bland all together. But 9 out of 10 times they appreciate MI more then they used to. Just like I noticed most people who lived other places complain a lot less about Detroit then people who been here all their life. I think that's the case in most places... the best thing Detroit can do is provide more opportunities to attract people to replace the people leaving. That's what most cities do.
I (Although I wish they would change the last call hour to 4am). .
Detroit City Club is open until 4 a.m. I think. Obviously they cannot legally serve drinks after 2 a.m. Not sure how they make any money from 2 -4 . Maybe they don't care.
Detroit City Club is open until 4 a.m. I think. Obviously they cannot legally serve drinks after 2 a.m. Not sure how they make any money from 2 -4 . Maybe they don't care.
They charge an entrance fee ($4 the last time I was in there) plus they sell non alcoholic drinks. But the main purpose to go to City Club is to dance HARD, not to socialize over drinks
Detroit City Club is open until 4 a.m. I think. Obviously they cannot legally serve drinks after 2 a.m. Not sure how they make any money from 2 -4 . Maybe they don't care.
Yea it's a few clubs/ lounges/ restaurants, ect open past 2am. But nobody can sell alcohol past 2am.
I have actually traveled to many other big cities in the country and I've been to nearly every big city in the Midwest. What amenities does Metro Detroit lack compared to other big cities that doesn't have to do with public transportation? Not even trying to argue I'm just very curious, what amenities do you have in the average city that Metro Detroit does not have?
We don't lack amenities. Other than maybe a real aquarium. The one at Great Lakes Crossing is a good attempt, just not a world class aquarium like, say, Chicago or Boston. No argument about amenities though. And yeah, a real public transportation system.
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Originally Posted by MS313
Really? Because I think the population of Metro Detroit is higher then it was 50 years ago.
Think again. According to the US Census Bureau, Metro Detroit's population was 4.5 million in 1970 and 4.3 million in 2016. And considering the population of the US has increased by 120 million people in the last 50 years, that makes it even worse.
Judging by the gaining population and the housing market that's getting more and more expensive I would say that's not bad for a place that just a few years ago had the highest unemployment rate in the nation and was bleeding population.
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I really enjoyed living there and outside of my hometown of Syracuse, NY I would say that it is the best place we have lived. 
