why is detroit so dangerous and then all the sudden you go a street over to grosse pointe, and its safe and sound safe? (Grosse Pointe Park: contractor, income)
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All goes back to racial redlining 50 years ago and prior; the legacy which eventually brought us urban riots, white flight and stigma of cities from suburbanites. It happened all over the country, but Detroit was probably one of the more extreme examples.
Just for clarification, according to my wife who spent the first 55 years of her life in the Pointes....
*The park passes people are referencing only apply to one park in each of the Pointes, the one along the lake.
*There is no reciprocity between the Pointes...a Woods pass doesn't get you in the Farms Park.
*The other parks in each community do not require a pass.
*The passes are free to renters and homeowners and both renters and homeowners have the same rights and responsibilities
That's what happened at Southfield High School. When I started going there in the mid-1990's, it was about 90% black then. I remember being in the school library one day looking at a yearbook from the 1989-90 school year, and the school was half black and half white. It changed that swiftly. But according to Coldjensen, it's never about race.
Just for clarification, according to my wife who spent the first 55 years of her life in the Pointes....
*The park passes people are referencing only apply to one park in each of the Pointes, the one along the lake.
*There is no reciprocity between the Pointes...a Woods pass doesn't get you in the Farms Park.
That does seem quite stratified...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyewackette
Requiring you to buy a "pass" to get into the public parks alone is enough to tell me that area has absolutely nothing to offer. Seriously. Guarded gates keeping people out of a PUBLIC SPACE. No.
A part of me says it is quite ridiculous, but another part feels that if they completely do away with the park pass system and people chose to move out, it would lead to a disintegration of the community.
Just for clarification, according to my wife who spent the first 55 years of her life in the Pointes....
*The park passes people are referencing only apply to one park in each of the Pointes, the one along the lake.
*There is no reciprocity between the Pointes...a Woods pass doesn't get you in the Farms Park.
*The other parks in each community do not require a pass.
*The passes are free to renters and homeowners and both renters and homeowners have the same rights and responsibilities
For those interested, here are the details regarding the acquisition of park passes in Grosse Pointe Park:
It just tickles me how people like to place blame more on how victims of racism REACT to the racism as opposed to really putting the blame where it belongs....ON THE RACISM. Its Coleman Young fault for creating an us vs them mentality? Uhhhh...no. That was well established after 300 years. Calling society on it is what makes people call it "divisive and us vs them". Its Coleman Young fault that he was not more into reconciliation? I mean....why reconcile with racism? Uhhhhh....no. Its Coleman Youngs fault that he did not get on his knees and plead with white people to stay in the city? Uhhhhh....no, that would be having no self respect. And again.....the critical point of white flight being "The riots".....in other words......blacks just behaving badly. Uhhhhhhh....no again.
All the analysis seems to avoid dealing with or putting any blame on what blacks were reacting to.
Here is the problem. It is not a one sided problem and everyone needs to recognize that. there is no excuse for what Coleman Young did. None. There is also no excuse for the racism that came before and the horrible way blacks were treated. However that does not justify, excuse or condone Coleman Young' and his cronies' racism. Nor the racism that came after. Nothing will make them good people - at least not in that regard. Excuses are BS. Yes your ancestors may have been treated badly by someone else's ancestors. Does that excuse or justify you treating me badly?
Many new black leaders appear to have taken the first step towards ending the stupidity and living in today. Treating people well. There have been leaders of both races who understood this over the years, but they have always been shouted down by the radicals. Now, they seem to be gaining some traction.
Nothing justifies bad treatment of other people. I do not care if your great great grandpa raped and killed my great great grandma. Making assumptions about other people based on sick generalities is just plain stupid. Everyone naturally tends to do that, but wise people learn to identify that tendency and fight it.
It all starts with the mirror.
And for the other poster, you are correct, I rarely believe the cause of something is racism. Pretty much everything had many causes. Racism may be a cause, but it is very rare it is the some cause of something.
It is also very rare that one side of anything is entirely to blame for a problem. In fact I can petty much say that is never the case.
Here is the problem. It is not a one sided problem and everyone needs to recognize that. there is no excuse for what Coleman Young did. None. There is also no excuse for the racism that came before and the horrible way blacks were treated. However that does not justify, excuse or condone Coleman Young' and his cronies' racism. Nor the racism that came after. Nothing will make them good people - at least not in that regard. Excuses are BS. Yes your ancestors may have been treated badly by someone else's ancestors. Does that excuse or justify you treating me badly?
Many new black leaders appear to have taken the first step towards ending the stupidity and living in today. Treating people well. There have been leaders of both races who understood this over the years, but they have always been shouted down by the radicals. Now, they seem to be gaining some traction.
Nothing justifies bad treatment of other people. I do not care if your great great grandpa raped and killed my great great grandma. Making assumptions about other people based on sick generalities is just plain stupid. Everyone naturally tends to do that, but wise people learn to identify that tendency and fight it.
It all starts with the mirror.
And for the other poster, you are correct, I rarely believe the cause of something is racism. Pretty much everything had many causes. Racism may be a cause, but it is very rare it is the some cause of something.
It is also very rare that one side of anything is entirely to blame for a problem. In fact I can petty much say that is never the case.
I do not know of any other way to look at things....but logically or mathematically. However, when I look at things based upon some logical model, some physics model, some mathematical model, people seek to discredit it based upon the fact that humans are not numbers or physics or logic. We somehow are not bound by or subject to the rules and laws of the universe. Rather, instead, they want to forward a purely emotional position based upon what the FEEL is wrong or right, based upon nothing but their feelings.
Logically, I know if you have an equality between two things if you want those two things to remain equal, then everything you do for or against one side you have to do for or against the other side for it to remain equal. That is a basic rule of math and equality. Whatever you do to one side has to be done on the other side or you risk creating INEQUALITY. If things became unequal by favoring one side.......simple logic says to reverse the favoring and equilibrium will be restored. That is logic. Emotions, however, says no....its wrong.
How do you restore EQUALITY after centuries of one side being treated differently than the other? How do you restore equality when one side has historically been highly favored over the other? At the time civil rights legislation had passed, black poverty was 3 times the rate of white poverty. Black wealth was 10 times less than white wealth. Black unemployment was 2.5 higher than white unemployment. This was the legacy of favoring one race over the other for centuries.
Here is the problem, to use your words. People see efforts to repair inequality.....as racism, because blacks get favored in such a strategy. Then people use the same laws that were created to keep blacks from being discriminated against, to keep blacks from being able to be targeted for repair of the damage done to them from centuries of discrimination. Coleman Young sought to provide opportunities to blacks in an era where blacks were still being widely discriminated against. Keep in mind we are talking about the 70's and 80's and how things were then.....not how things are NOW. Coleman Young did what was logical to help foster economic racial equality. He would never had have to make such an effort if not as an equal and opposite reaction to society disfavoring blacks. Current leaders do not have to go to the level that he went to simply because times are different. Things are better for blacks today, racially, than in Coleman Young's days and hence less leaders of that model foment as a reaction to the times.
People seem not to have a problem talking about crime, out of wedlock births, personal irresponsibility, etc, with a black emphasis and focus, even though we know whites are guilty of all these things as well. You never hear of white on white crime, white children born out of wedlock, etc, being discussed anywhere, just those things as it relates to blacks. Yet, when it comes to racism, you can't mention white racism without balancing the story by talking about black racism. Yet, no one seeks to balance out stories about crime, out of wedlock births, irresponsibility to make it seem like its just as much of a problem with whites than it is with blacks? People want blacks to own criminality, fatherless children, personal irresponsibility, because of statistics, yet, which are short term snapshots of history. Yet, they want to ignore the long term snap shot of history that shows white racism and what makes it endemic to whites....and not a "both sides" phenomenon.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 05-16-2018 at 11:03 AM..
I do not know of any other way to look at things....but logically or mathematically. However, when I look at things based upon some logical model, some physics model, some mathematical model, people seek to discredit it based upon the fact that humans are not numbers or physics or logic. We somehow are not bound by or subject to the rules and laws of the universe. Rather, instead, they want to forward a purely emotional position based upon what the FEEL is wrong or right, based upon nothing but their feelings.
Logically, I know if you have an equality between two things if you want those two things to remain equal, then everything you do for or against one side you have to do for or against the other side for it to remain equal. That is a basic rule of math and equality. Whatever you do to one side has to be done on the other side or you risk creating INEQUALITY. If things became unequal by favoring one side.......simple logic says to reverse the favoring and equilibrium will be restored. That is logic. Emotions, however, says no....its wrong.
How do you restore EQUALITY after centuries of one side being treated differently than the other? How do you restore equality when one side has historically been highly favored over the other? At the time civil rights legislation had passed, black poverty was 3 times the rate of white poverty. Black wealth was 10 times less than white wealth. Black unemployment was 2.5 higher than white unemployment. This was the legacy of favoring one race over the other for centuries.
Here is the problem, to use your words. People see efforts to repair inequality.....as racism, because blacks get favored in such a strategy. Then people use the same laws that were created to keep blacks from being discriminated against, to keep blacks from being able to be targeted for repair of the damage done to them from centuries of discrimination. Coleman Young sought to provide opportunities to blacks in an era where blacks were still being widely discriminated against. Keep in mind we are talking about the 70's and 80's and how things were then.....not how things are NOW. Coleman Young did what was logical to help foster economic racial equality. He would never had have to make such an effort if not as an equal and opposite reaction to society disfavoring blacks. Current leaders do not have to go to the level that he went to simply because times are different. Things are better for blacks today, racially, than in Coleman Young's days and hence less leaders of that model foment as a reaction to the times.
People seem not to have a problem talking about crime, out of wedlock births, personal irresponsibility, etc, with a black emphasis and focus, even though we know whites are guilty of all these things as well. You never hear of white on white crime, white children born out of wedlock, etc, being discussed anywhere, just those things as it relates to blacks. Yet, when it comes to racism, you can't mention white racism without balancing the story by talking about black racism. Yet, no one seeks to balance out stories about crime, out of wedlock births, irresponsibility to make it seem like its just as much of a problem with whites than it is with blacks? People want blacks to own criminality, fatherless children, personal irresponsibility, because of statistics, yet, which are short term snapshots of history. Yet, they want to ignore the long term snap shot of history that shows white racism and what makes it endemic to whites....and not a "both sides" phenomenon.
Racism cannot be justified. Calling it "efforts to repair inequality" does not change the fact it is racism. Coleman Young was racist and promoted racism and racial hate. Racial hate does not repair inequality, it worsens it. You cannot "restore" equality. Life is not fair and the government cannot make it so. Instead they make a a mess of things constantly trying. Are you going to make it fair that Billy Smith is the unwanted son of a crack wh*** and Juanita Jones is the daughter of a doctor and an engineer who are dedicated to providing every possible opportunity for her? You cannot make that fair. Nothing will place them on equal footings. Certainly not telling Billy to hate Juanita and encouraging him to refuse to deal with her in any way. Certainly not encouraging him to hurt her. That i just going to get him thrown in jail and likely make Juanita hate Billy or even everyone she generalizes being simlar to Billy.
"You never hear of white on white crime, white children born out of wedlock, etc, being discussed anywhere,"
Maybe you don't in the circles you run in. I hear it being discussed regularly. Pretty much every day. Well more often I hear crime and the failure of the family structure being discussed generally without concern about the skin color of the persons involved. However, when I hear these things being discussed about specific people or specific examples, it is usually white people being discussed. I believe there is a lot of talk in the news about Black on Black crime in Chicago, but I do not watch television news, so I am not sure. I have heard discussions about this concern in Chicago. However in conversations about crime, deadbeat dads, failure of the family- it is almost always about people generally - not black or white.
I will agree with you from the little I do see, it appears the media is trying to widen the distrust and dislike on all sides between races, but I do not know why. My guess is they want more racially charged violence events to report on. But then I pretty much despise the media, so I am likely to be cynical about their motives.
There are unique problems within the Black subculture. It seems silly to try to deny that. It seems probably that Blacks within certain black subculture areas are killing each other at unprecedented rates. Yes Whites kill each other too, but not at such an alarming rate, except maybe in a few select areas. Maybe that is just an issue of emphasis. Perhaps whites in Duluth are preying on each other at the same rate of Black on black violence in Chicago. I have o idea, and if that is true, then the media is disproportionately focusing on one race in Chicago.
have no idea whether there are more out of wedlock births among blacks or whites and I do not much care about that particular statistic. What would that tell me that would be of any use? The decline of the family structure is a national or maybe worldwide problem that is not endemic to any one race or location. I have heard abortions are disproportionately higher among minorities, especially Blacks - although I have no idea what to make of that statistic. Some people claim the left is using abortion to repress the growth of minority populations and that is why they promote it. (Even I am not that cynical - I do not buy that assertion). Other than the abortion issue and Black on Black crime in Chicago (and once - Cleveland), I have not heard anything that would support the assertion you are making. To assert that I never hear such talk regarding white people, is completely incorrect.
There are certainly problems the Black subculture needs to deal with. Those problems cannot be solved by laws, money or outside anything. They can only be solved by modifying the subculture from within, or by rejecting it entirely. Saying they are someone else's fault because of centuries of mistreatment does nothing at all to solve the problem. Encouraging people to hate those who are outside the culture because of the problem, also does nothing at all to solve the problem.
Both the black subculture and the white subculture have serious racism problems. So does pretty much every subculture. I do not see how those problems can be resolved from the outside of any subculture.
Could you give some known examples of the racism demonstrated by Coleman Young? Often times what I find is that people make up their own definition of what racism is. Let me present the definition from dictionary.com and tell me how Coleman was guilty of this.
If you have a broken leg.....is it discrimination against your other leg that the broken leg is getting special treatment and attention? What I really never understood is the opposition to black uplift, even if through the assistance of government efforts. I mean, government did play a role, via its laws, to hold blacks back for centuries. However, aside from that how much greater would Americas GDP be if black per capita income and wealth were on par with whites? In the long run, the investment would pay for itself with less government transfer payments (welfare), less spending on the prison industrial complex, more money spent in businesses owned by whites and others because blacks would then have more purchasing power. I don't see the downside of investing in or promoting black economic equality or parity with whites, especially given the history of this nations laws to keep blacks beneath whites.
Personally, I just believe that this society will only make such an investment if it thought there would or could be a return on the investment. However, many Americans feel that it is a waste of money to invest in something inherently inferior because no amount of spending can change genetics (see the REAL definition of racism from the link above). It's just mind boggling to me how people are so passionately against giving special efforts and attention to uplifting a group of people that it took special efforts to keep down....especially when THE WHOLE NATION WOULD BENEFIT in the long run from it. Did we not help rebuild Japan after Japan attacked us? Did we not help rebuild Europe via the Marshall Plan....a war that was no fault of our own? Yet, the country kicks and screams at the idea of helping to repair a group of people THAT IT OPPRESSED! Yet, such efforts get called RACIST...or reverse racism.....said the good leg to the broken leg.
We will not award contracts to any white owned businesses. (said in various ways).
We will not hire any white people for key positions within the city. (said in various ways).
White people should just stay out of our city and out of our business. (said in various ways).
We will hire black contractor who are incompetent and pay them exorbitant fees rather than hiring white contractor.
You do not look like me, why would I let you work in my city?
If you want to use the broken leg analogy - Coleman Young's approach was to break the other leg to make them both equal. Better yet break not only the other leg, but the arm ont hat side too, then the original broken leg side will have an advantage.
What you seem to be saying is the answer to centuries of inequality and mistreatment by whites against blacks, it to have centuries of inequality and mistreatment by blacks against whites and that will somehow ma
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