Detroit suburbs (Warren, Sterling Heights, Ann Arbor: employment, neighborhood, high school)

[Geo-Aggie]

Because something has some demand does not mean it is sustainable or healthy development.

This - is not - sustainable - development.
But it's what pretty much everything west of I-275 or North of M-59 looks like. (With a couple of exceptions.) To me Canton is the epitome of this. Macomb Township is a close second.

Are there people who like it? Yes. Absolutely. Some of you are right here telling me how great it is.
However, is it a textbook definition of suburban sprawl? Is it bad for the metro? Is it bad for the environment? And are there people would rather sell their soul than live here? Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

We live in a metro that hasn't changed in overall population since what, 1970? Yet its footprint keeps growing and growing and growing; decade after decade, there's a new "it" suburb farther and farther out. This is not healthy. It creates a substantial infrastructure cost that will become a long-term liability. Maybe not for you or I, but it will for our kids or grandkids. Or maybe they'll just go another 10 miles out and build another ring of suburbs? The comeback of Greater Downtown and the improved desirability of many of the inner-ring suburbs is very healthy for the metro as a whole. There's not much that can be done about mistakes made in the development of existing outer-ring suburbs. They are there and over time the maintenance of their infrastructure will become a larger and larger tax burden, but they will need to be maintained. What we can do is stop developing more and more of this sprawl, further and further out. Admittedly this isn't a Detroit-Only problem as every major city has this same development pattern, but an important difference is that the suburbanization of places like Atlanta, Houston, and Denver have come with metro populations that have tripled since the 1970s. Yet we're developing in the same pattern (though much more slowly) with 0 population growth.

Is it desirable to have a brand new house on the edge of the country, but with major city amenities a mere 40 minutes away? Some people like that. Had Detroit continued growing as models from the 1970s suggested it would, these places would naturally become developed, but likely with a higher population density. This hasn't happened. The metro has stayed the same size, yet we've hollowed it out decade after decade. The 2010s seemed to stem that tide, but I'm not convinced that will be long-term, which is unfortunate. If someone must have new, a far more sustainable alternative would be redevelopment of a lot in an older, established neighborhood/suburb with a reasonable density. We do see a lot of this, but probably not enough. This is why I'm strongly against further development of places like Canton, Macomb, Lyon, etc. It'll happen, I know I'm not changing that, but I'm not going to stop talking about how it's bad.

[leroythelion]

Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie

But it's what pretty much everything west of I-275 or North of M-59 looks like. (With a couple of exceptions.) To me Canton is the epitome of this. Macomb Township is a close second.

Geo, maybe I missed it, but which great neighborhood do you live in?

[KayAnn246]

Originally Posted by leroythelion

Geo, maybe I missed it, but which great neighborhood do you live in?

Right! I like Canton and so do most people. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[leroythelion]

Originally Posted by KayAnn246

Right! I like Canton and so do most people. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Geo and Cold Jensens really hate Canton. They are entitled to their opinion and quite frankly am tired of hearing it. As many know, Canton's #1 issue is that Wayne County is responsible for the roads and their roads department is probably the most inept government agency of all time. Last week, they filled in two potholes on my street and completely ignored the 10 other massive ones.

[DTWflyer]

Canton 2018 is what Troy was in 1993.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by leroythelion

Geo and Cold Jensens really hate Canton. They are entitled to their opinion and quite frankly am tired of hearing it. As many know, Canton's #1 issue is that Wayne County is responsible for the roads and their roads department is probably the most inept government agency of all time. Last week, they filled in two potholes on my street and completely ignored the 10 other massive ones.

You really need to practice your reading. I do not hate Canton and I never have. Canton is what it is. It is soulless suburbia - that cannot be denied, but it is very nice soulless suburbia and near perfect for people who like that kind of thing. Which is what I have posted, repeatedly. I do not even hate soulless suburbia (aka sprawl). I accept that is it popular and it is going to be around for my lifetime. It is not for me, but I am glad it is there for the people who like it even if I do not understand how people can like it. Canton offers some of the nicest opportunities for that style of living if that is what you want.

However if you want a central focus, a sense of community or defined place, history, meritorious architecture - well that is not Canton, Go elsewhere. It is just a question of what you want and what you value. Canton is very nice new Sprawl, convenient to a lot of big box stores and chain restaurants, but it cannot be all things. Unfortunately, some people simply cannot accept their community is not all things and not the best of all things.

If everyone liked what I like, I would not be able to afford what I like, so miles and miles of sprawl being popular, is great for me. If all of those hundreds of thousands of people who live in Detroit metro sprawl suddenly wanted to live in my community or my type of community instead, it would be a disaster for me.

Now, when I go to sell my house, I would like to see that change please. In ten to fifteen years if we could just make sprawl unacceptable to everyone - even if just for a decade, that would be perfect. We also need to make people not care about the proximity to big box stores and chain restaurants. The former is going to take care of itself, but the latter will need some help. Thank you.

[Geo-Aggie]

I'm not trying to tell you that your likes and dislikes need to change. We can't all like the same thing and that's great. I am merely saying that additional development of outer suburbs as regional population growth is 0 is unsustainable, and disagreeing with you that "most" people like Canton.

Canton is fine, and I'm sure that most who live in Canton like it, which is why they live there. As around my neighborhood most people dislike Canton, which is why they don't live there. They'll state that a suburb 40 minutes from the city center that is exactly like the suburb 25 minutes away (Livonia), the suburb 40 minutes away with a downtown (Plymouth), and the upscale suburb 40 minutes away with a fancy downtown (Northville), while being incredibly similar to the Canton of Oakland County (Novi) the Canton of Macomb County (Macomb Township) and the other Canton of Oakland County (Rochester Hills)... it's just... well... it's very average, but nice average, but unsustainable. And unless your main criteria for a place to live are proximity to an Ikea or proximity to Ann Arbor while simultaneously being in the most non-Ann-Arbor place possible, I don't know what the draw to Canton is over Macomb, Shelby, Novi, Lyon, Auburn Hills, blah, blah, blah, etc. Once you get past 275 or Hall Road, it's all the same to those of us who don't like outer-suburbia.

Admittedly there are a lot of people who like outer suburbia, and I'm sure there's some sort of nuance in it, but it's lost on me.

[mgkeith]

Often, people choose their residence based on proximity to the workplace, and of course-- the unique needs of their family. Canton is close to many workplaces.

[goofy328]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

I actually think that Detroit suburbs would rank higher than the suburbs of many places as a consequence of the area trying to compartmentalize all the issues of poverty and race within the city limits. If you go to metro Atlanta, for instance, most of the murders in the metro area of Atlanta take place outside the city of Atlanta. Only like a third of murders take place in Atlanta proper. Where as in the case of Metro Detroit, 2/3 of the murders in the metro area take place in the city and the city is where there is the most concentrated poverty. In the South, poverty, crime, poor schools are very prevalent in the "suburbs".

Sounds about right.

[craig11152]

Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie

We live in a metro that hasn't changed in overall population since what, 1970? Yet its footprint keeps growing and growing and growing; What we can do is stop developing more and more of this sprawl, further and further out. Admittedly this isn't a Detroit-Only problem as every major city has this same development pattern, but an important difference is that the suburbanization of places like Atlanta, Houston, and Denver have come with metro populations that have tripled since the 1970s. Yet we're developing in the same pattern (though much more slowly) with 0 population growth.

Population density per square mile for the urban areas above..

Houston 2978
Detroit 2792
Atlanta 1706
Denver 1372
---------------------
central city population as % of area

Houston 42.5%
Denver 25.2%
Detroit 19.1%
Atlanta 9.3%
---------------------------------
central city land area percent of urban area
Houston 38.5%
Denver 22.9%
Detroit 10.3%
Atlanta 5.0%