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I saw some construction vehicles moving around on 696 on Friday. They didn't seem to be accomplishing much, but this was a step forward over the prior 2 weeks where literally nothing has happened.
Yes , my Aggie friend, the Contractor on the project is responsible for the temporary routing of traffic and sometimes must send someone to do things like move signs or repair a pothole what ever is in the construction Zone.
It was probably some management member from Iafrate or Ajax company. Probably Iafrate people during the tear out and repair phase is responsible for these details.
Later when the work is done and Ajax arrives to pave they will be responsible.
Another company rebuilds the bridges, not Iafrate or Dans. There are many bridge companies in Detroit Metro , some are huge- Midwest Bridge, etc. These are shutdown too.
We'll see this week what happens. Will the union work without a contract until the completion of
I-696?
Personally I doubt it. Just an opinion, but I doubt it. Maybe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie
I saw some construction vehicles moving around on 696 on Friday. They didn't seem to be accomplishing much, but this was a step forward over the prior 2 weeks where literally nothing has happened.
No the lockout continues. The union simply will not deal, with the punk ass Contractor's Organization Representatives.
They want to sign with the signatory contractors themselves, the Operating Engineers does. No middle man is needed. This is between the Union and the contractors. This has happened long ago, once before, maybe in the late sixties or early seventies.
If the Contractors have to pay for non-completion penalties , it is pretty bad. $10,000.00 per day over.I believe.
They will soon be at the table. Schneider will be obliged to take action very soon. As in levy fines.
All that needs be done is for the contractors to sign the contracts. That is it. That is all.
Typically a general strike is treated as Force Majeure, so no "penalties" (penalties in a contract are actually illegal and unenforceable, the delay damages are liquidated because it is impossible to accurately calculate the exact amount of impact of a road delay on our State. $10 a day is high. I once wrote a contract for a bid package for an agency that had $15K a day LDs and no one bid it. That is simply too much risk for a contractor to take on, even if the risk can be passed on to subcontractors. I am not sure what the MDOT contract provides though. Schneider has no input into the impositions of delay damages.
The strike makes no sense. There are no actual issues in dispute that relate to wages or benefits for the workers, it is all about the Union's Management preferences. There is no benefit whatsoever to the member of the union from separate contracts. If they are not looking for the opportunity to give favored contractors an advantage over other contractors, it may be a hissy fit because the union management is ticked off at the MITA negotiation team, or it could be they are looking for some angle to get personal gain. There is nothing here that will help the members who are bearing the burden of the strike. Sooner or later the membership will realize this and pressure the union to put an end to the strike. Eventually, they will ask: "Why am I paying for your hissy fit? Learn to get along with these people, or find someone who can."
My daughter is in a union, she said if they called a strike like this, she woudl just go find a different job.
Not again? Do not forget the MITA people are snakes in the grass. Firstly.
Once again figments of your imagination, leaps of illogic, (unimaginative as they can be) no,no.
This is about the Republican majority and the Flint water tycoon, Schneider. They've passed two laws that allow scab labor onto work sites. Crossing a picket line of angry nerved up and fearless heavy equipment operators might not work, unless one brings violence with them. These guys many,many times risk their lives to complete their days work. Looking down a sheer wall or embankment of unstable ground and knowing that said wall could easily collapse? Try it. Cojones, big ones it takes. This is but one instance I have listed here. You might mess your drawers. The average person would be scared shirtless.
Right to work was a big one, prevailing wage another. Just like the Social Security Trust Fund- shrinking contributions will cause these pension funds to dwindle also. This is to become a tremendous hurdle in the future, a liability for the people that make Michigan operate. The younger people. This is only one reason, coldjensens, you really do not know anything about this. Skilled trades make this town work. From
the tool and die people- to Operators.
One must be state licensed to operate many of the machines with dozens of certifications
for all operators, to boot. Cranes are dangerous machines, forklifts etc. So this testing.
These operators are drug tested and testing is kept track of online. As are different certifications also, by the union and, the insurance companies and contractors..all can find one and their records online.
The Hazmat first responders are also a part of this union- and licensed. These names are kept on a database in D.C., in case of a national emergency where qualified people may not be available because of
a lack of qualifications.
Particularly again, if one works for the big three which is extremely common. Any bad news, concerning the certifications or physicals and one will be escorted out of the plant. Or. One will not be let inside to begin with. This is not stuff for amateurs. Employees can log on and be tested on certifications, kept current and make sure one is still, qualified.
All of this information is on a database for eligible employees in Michigan. Union Members are many times known by contractors and the union , particularly the very highly skilled ones.
As little as your daughter knows of these matters, you know even less. This misinformation spewed here is encyclopedic, apparently actually knowing the truth matters little here. Enter anything. Anything is good
enough.
It is ridiculous. This is all in the interest of the Operators. No more and no less. Wages and benefits aren't even an issue, never were at all, and no one stated such. It is the future which is at stake, it is that important of an issue.
Listen to this if you really want to know facts and not spew nonsense here, anymore.
One sentence will tell it all. It is MITA. These people need to be cut out. It is all about this. One more time....MITA. The union wants the signatory contractors to sign, not MITA. These are but parasites, and nothing more. Sign the contract with the union and the lockout will end. Easy. Uncomplicated. Cut out the middle man, he is unneeded.
The roads will be completed on time and meet all expectations. Really. No unexpected twists by out of state employees of questionable skill level. Incompletion and shabby work is at risk here.
No surprises , just what we all want, the roads fixed. By people that know Michigan work methods.
We're plagued by alternating temperatures here in Michigan and perennially potholed streets that never hold up.
Let them work, the wagons are circled and the attack is upon us. Let them get back to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens
Typically a general strike is treated as Force Majeure, so no "penalties" (penalties in a contract are actually illegal and unenforceable, the delay damages are liquidated because it is impossible to accurately calculate the exact amount of impact of a road delay on our State. $10 a day is high. I once wrote a contract for a bid package for an agency that had $15K a day LDs and no one bid it. That is simply too much risk for a contractor to take on, even if the risk can be passed on to subcontractors. I am not sure what the MDOT contract provides though. Schneider has no input into the impositions of delay damages.
The strike makes no sense. There are no actual issues in dispute that relate to wages or benefits for the workers, it is all about the Union's Management preferences. There is no benefit whatsoever to the member of the union from separate contracts. If they are not looking for the opportunity to give favored contractors an advantage over other contractors, it may be a hissy fit because the union management is ticked off at the MITA negotiation team, or it could be they are looking for some angle to get personal gain. There is nothing here that will help the members who are bearing the burden of the strike. Sooner or later the membership will realize this and pressure the union to put an end to the strike. Eventually, they will ask: "Why am I paying for your hissy fit? Learn to get along with these people, or find someone who can."
My daughter is in a union, she said if they called a strike like this, she woudl just go find a different job.
A lot of misconceptions going on here. This is an issue between private corporations and one labor union.
Normally, rather than each contractor hiring an agency and some lawyers to negotiate a contract for them Construction contractors join an association who negotiated the contract on behalf of all of its members.
In this case, MITA (Michigan Infrastructure Transportation Association) is negotiating a contract on behalf of roughly 40 infrastructure contractors (who are the primary contractors who use Operators). MITA apparently ticked off the union bosses who are pitching a fit and refusing to negotiate with MITA anymore. Since they cannot negotiate a contract, MITA declared a lockout on behalf of the contractors. So it is technically not a strike by the Operators, it is a refusal to negotiate forcing the contractors into a lockout. However there is no choice since the Union will not negotiate. It is not a case of the Union wanting something like more moment or better benefits for its workers. It is just a ticked off union boss saying "Well then I will show you"
You will notice there is no specific statement about what MITA has done that is so horrible. There is not statement about what the Union thinks it will get for its workers by negotiating directly with the negotiators hired by Contractors rather than with MITA. Why? This is either a political maneuver or a personal vendetta. There is not potential benefit to the workers. It is a union game at worker's expense.
The whole thing is stupid and the workers are suffering for no benefit, just to feed the union boss ego. IN the end, even if they win, the contractors will likely hire the same MITA people or at least consult with them to negotiate a new contract. The Union people are going to have to grow up and learn to negotiate with people they do not like. That is something adults have to do. Eventually I expect the Union workers will get sick of their families suffering just because their representatives cannot get along with heir counterparts and will pressure the union to end the strike. Of course they car almost into the cold weather where paving becomes nearly impractical so many of the workers may not get to go back to work if the strike does not end soon. This is the time they should be logging a on of overtime and banking some money for the winter.
So if this does not involve the government why is Snyder involved?
Simple, government road projects are shut down due to the strike impacting private contractors. The union workers do not work for the State they work for companies like Dan's, Ajax, Iafrate, Turner, Toebe, etc. Some projects like the southern stretch of I-75 will likely not get finished before winter and as a result may end up extended into next spring. That means State roads are going to be tied up a lot longer for construction. That means ticked off voters, so Snyder is involved.
I have been trying to figure out what is really going on here. The refusal to negotiate at all makes no sense. Unions usually do not do things that hurt their workers for silly reasons. I think it may be a political move. By shutting down all the public road projects just before the elections, the union can make the party in power (republicans) look bad. Almost no one understands the situation but they think there is a strike and they think it involves the government. No one knows this is basically a hissy fit by union bosses, or a political maneuver, they just know the poor underpaid union workers are striking because the bad government will not give them something. They think their working conditions are so terrible they are forced to starve their families to get a fair deal. Since the general public is likely to side with striking workers against the government, it could tip the election which is anticipated to be very close. This may be payback for right to work and it may well work. If it is a political move, it is a clever one to some extent. The not so clever part is that is it not going to help the union workers at all. If Gretchen Whitmer wins the election will right to work get overturned? No. The governor does not have that power. What may happen however is more companies will get fed up with the union and go open shop instead. This is a good time to do it because the pension funds are in decent shape (it is underfunded pension liability that generally prevents companies form going non-union.
The contractors are already being forced to go to non-union workers to get the jobs moving. How many of these companies are just going to say, well since I already have a non-union workforce, I really do not need to negotiate a new contract with he union? The big players, Dans, Iafrate, Toebe, will never do that, but some of the mid-sized or smaller guys might.
The unions have embarked on a path of out clevering themselves for decades. Too much focus on short terms gains and not enough on long term strategy. AS a result they keep getting weaker and weaker in the long term. 20 years ago Right to work in Michigan would have been laughed at as a good joke. The unions made it possible by weakening themselves long term in order to get short terms gains.
In the construction industry, I like the unions generally. they do a lot of really good things. They cooperate well with contractors to setup safety training and safety rules that have massively reduced injuries. To some extent they ensure construction workers have the opportunity to make more moeny than many people with masters degrees. They help ensure a readily available well trained work force (except lately they have been taking on too few apprentices and creating a labor shortage, but that will change). However they are bad long term strategists. Many of their leaders have gotten too excited about politics and have lost their focus on benefiting their members. Relatively strong Unions are good for our society in my opinion, but only if they focus on their purpose and stop trying to advance their political agenda and personal political careers.
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Last edited by Coldjensens; 09-27-2018 at 06:39 AM..
Ad Infinitum. You once again are repeating what you've already written here. Redundancy is a virtue.
So once again, " Altogether now....."
The Union Leaders- not bosses- are indeed helping the membership and without insight into the inner workings of the union and its plans for thee future you've no information, just keep on writing perhaps
what you throw at the wall will eventually stick you hope.
Once and for all, The union wants its' guys back to work. Plain and simple. It is the MITA which is
stupid about the political part of it and thousands or guys agree. IT is that simple. They understand what is at stake.
DO you in your inexperience in labor matters not understand this?
Yes, they want to go back to work, let MITA agree to thousands and thousands of the people that actually
do work. The work of keeping the infrastructure working. This is not some auto strike where shareholders lose money.It is the cries of thousands. Get it yet? Probably not.
You simply cannot understand, and it is impossible and also plainly visible because you've written no pertinent information. Gobbledeegoo.
The thing has become political. A real gem of an idea that was alright. Why of course it has. Ever heard of the Wagner act? The AFL-CIO?
Yes, duh, of course it has. Why do you think the 324 has Political Action Committees? This is nothing new.
Corporations have always taken advantage of labor when ever they could. Formed gigantic corporations
too, conglomerates of immense size whenever it could. Illegally too. Sometimes even stooping to use lethal force against workers to strengthen their positions and wealth. It does not work. True thuggery. What is left but legal maneuvering?
Labor organized itself to fight off these greedy money grubbers making millions off the backs of the average worker. People have died in this fight for the right to a living wage. The greedy have fought right back. This fight is no different.
Detroit is the labor capital of the world. This fight, and it is once again a fight, for the life of the union,
and you do not get it. These deaths I wrote of have occurred here in the northeast where people have a knack for not only, for crafting and tinkering and inventing, FABRICATING, but fighting for the right to a living wage.
Many times earning much more than bean counters, teachers , lawyers etc. Yes. Rightfully so too.
Something is actually being created of use to a great free society, something of great... importance.
the right to mobility in a modern society. I sincerely hope this is a win for the workers.
Keep on writing. The unions are excellent long term strategists, founded in 1896 they are 122 years old
and do have representation in D.C. Engineers International and the of course AFL-CIO.
Yes we are prepared for a fight. Make no mistake. Fights for rights begin within.
ONCE AGAIN.. Make no mistake, there will be a fight if the membership shows up. If.
Under the current system MITA and the union negotiate the cost of labor, and that creates a situation where all of the contractors are paying the same for labor. Therefore when it's time to bid on jobs they all have the same labor cost and simply pass that cost on to the government.
If the union negotiates with each contractor then the contractors will be forced to try and chisel away at wage costs in order to be the low bidder.
The cost of labor varies widely with the efficiency of the contractor, his engineering costs and also overhead.
If a contractor doesn't have good operators he is instantly at a competitive disadvantage. Out where the actual work is done, time is of the essence. Talent counts for everything. Skills and time are intertwined. The highly skilled can finish everything very quickly. So. Cheaply. Cheaper because if everyone is very good and all else goes well barring the ever present disadvantages of the elements, money is made.
It is always a race against the clock. Fall is coming, a time of less profit for the contractor and less wages for the guys. IF things aren't done in a efficient and prosperous manner, tempers get shorter and so a guy may be run off if he cannot measure up, this is a losing bet, run him off.
The contractors keep records of everything, of how long it takes each man to finish each task. So much time to move so many cubic yards perhaps or lay a water main. This is all entered into the company database and so the contractors know who produces the best results out there and who the worst.
Some guys can do no wrong by the end of the year and then everybody is happy. Ka ching.
The overhead is the bean counters, field equipment mechanics, office managers, shop mechanics, receptionists and maintenance. Anywhere that the end result, production, is not occurring.
Successful contractors land the greatest number of jobs because of their cost efficiency.
Iafrate was by far the largest contractor in the state before the Great Recession. An empire consisting of 6 asphalt plants, an unknown number of concrete crushing plants, a limestone quarry, sand mines, topsoil plants, a concrete division, earth moving operations, underground crews who could lay water mains, sanitary or storm sewers, a trucking division and so were completely able to take a site over beginning to end. They are probably still the largest I believe but their operations are mostly out of state under different names, a conglomerate now. They still do all these same things here in the D except for paving asphalt.
Only cement.
And. So brown dog it has become a science like everything else. Preparedness, expertise at construction by the contractor. Attention to detail. Logistics kept at a minimum, cost of construction materials, labor, and overhead.
Bidding is key. The guys had better produce though, production. Despite the incredible noise, screaming and hollering, heat, dust, laborers all over, mud, rocks, gravel haulers, dumb truck drivers, too much sunshine and rain and let us not forget, the cold. Most of all it is the incredibly rough ride these guys endure. A caterpillar tractor though now is a high tech machine and though amazingly expensive they are,
they still can produce a pounding wild bronc type of ride.
Heavy and highway - mining and extraction is the most dangerous occupation on earth with 5000 fatalities per year. This is dangerous work. Heroes?
Surely. One hears abut these guys dying all of the time. Killed while doing roadwork by a passing motorist. Great. One of these were caught up with one time by the workers after they lost control
of the car and then tried,tried, to flee on foot. Poetic justice, first hand in a very literal sense, ocurred.
It's a living. Brown Dog.
It is over for now, let the work begin possibly in two twelve hour shifts and lookout production will be at a maximum, the race is on. Let us get underway.
Next year the demands will be the same I surmise and a lockout will occur again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown_dog_us
Here is the part I don't get....
Under the current system MITA and the union negotiate the cost of labor, and that creates a situation where all of the contractors are paying the same for labor. Therefore when it's time to bid on jobs they all have the same labor cost and simply pass that cost on to the government.
If the union negotiates with each contractor then the contractors will be forced to try and chisel away at wage costs in order to be the low bidder.
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Prejudice-d?
.
. Why of course it has. Ever heard of the Wagner act? The AFL-CIO? 
. Make no mistake, there will be a fight if the membership shows up. If.
