Can Detroit have high speed rail to Chicago and Toronto? (Grosse Pointe: hotels, neighborhood)

[BugsyPal]

Interesting: https://www.wired.com/story/trump-budget-amtrak-nixon/

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by BugsyPal

Interesting: https://www.wired.com/story/trump-budget-amtrak-nixon/

Yep, a large part of why passenger rail in the US has poor service in regards to peer developed countries isn’t just distance among cities as there are several corridors that can ostensibly be successful—it’s also because Amtrak is designed to be poor and constantly looking for money while the much more heavily subsidized airline and road networks are not. Improvements are often done in small piecemeal fashion that are ultimately more expensive in terms of cost benefit than doing farther reaching projects and basic maintenance is often hobbled.

A main function of infrastructure is to grease the wheels of the economy which is why governments usually find such to be essential investments. However, we have structured our infrastructure funding to neglect passenger rail even when it comes to sensible corridors. There’s a sort of dog whistle that gets emitted when it comes to passenger rail and Amtrak especially even when projects are laid out that have projections that are favorable towards the goal of boosting the economy. One of the most egregious examples is the 3C corridor linking the major cities of Ohio that was to be embarked upon during the recession as stimulus spending with an eye towards progressing economic development. The initial projections suggested good ridership for the route, but the opposition focused on the average speed and travel time from Cincinnati to Cleveland.

This was part of the rallying cry for Kasich’s successful gubernatorial bid— snail train, though there were end to end routes that were obviously shorter hops than the end and end trip and that there are different advantages to rail riding that courts riders that would be willing to exchange an hour longer trip for the end to end than driving. That initial study for corridor speed was a first look of sorts and that was favorable enough to greenlight funding for a deeper study. While this more exhaustive study was being conducted, Kasich was elected, and then afterwards the more exhaustive study was released and the projected end to end trip time ended up significantly shorter and the average speed including station stops was higher than first estimated. It didn’t matter though as that was part of the election platform even though a central thrust for the criticism, one that was arguable in the first place in terms of its effects, had mostly eroded. It didn’t matter though and the whole endeavor was abandoned after the time and effort trying to put it on track. Meanwhile, rideshare solves a lot of last mile problems and a major portion of the corridor that line would have served might actually have its tracks downgraded for slower operation which means another round to get it back up might actually find itself working with tracks even less ready for passenger rail than the first time around and consequently take more time and money to get things up to speed.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Y . . . because Amtrak is designed to be poor and constantly looking for money while the much more heavily subsidized . . . road networks are not.

You do not live in Michigan, do you? (If you did you would know why the statement above is funny to us).

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

You do not live in Michigan, do you? (If you did you would know why the statement above is funny to us).

I guess that statement should have been qualified to be Amtrak is meant to constantly ask for one-time massive inputs with relatively little in continuous funding sources and at a ratio that is far greater than that is asked for in regards to the road network which while also inflicts tolls and fees, are subsidized to a much greater extent overall. Cut me some slack—my posts run super long already!

[Coldjensens]

I think I follow you. We do not have toll roads though. You live in Ohio? You have better roads. Our road maintenance and repair is notoriously underfunded. They keep passing tax increases for road repairs and then taking the money for other things. For over forty years they have been kicking the can down the road and leaving the rep[air problem for the next elected group of monkeys. Eventually it became such a mess that it seems impractical to solve. They need billions and the longer they wait, the more they need. So, they just kick the can a little harder. they are terrified to propose a multi billion dollar tax increase, too afraid to cut other funding to come up with the money without increasing taxes. So, as always, they will do some minimal short term band aid repairs that will last until the next election cycle and the the new politicians will say, "Wow we really have terrible road contractors in Michigan, look all these repairs are already falling apart" Without knowing that our contractors are also the same contractors who build many of the roads in Ohio and Indiana and that the repairs from earlier were cheap short term bandaids that were never designed to last. Eventually they figure that out so they kick the can a little, then the next group does some more band aid repairs.

Now, it is finally catching up with them. You can band aid the roads for a long time, but you cannot do that with bridges. As the bridges fail, they are going to have to start closing roads. A few have already been closed.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by craig11152

OyCrumbler,
As I mentioned before I enjoy taking the Wolverine to Chicago. I'd maybe enjoy it even more if the time was cut in half... Depending on the ticket price. It's often said "time is money" but that's only as true as someone willing to pay you for your time. At my age and life stage nobody is paying me for my time. As I also mentioned before I can find a ticket for as little as $31 but that would never be a Friday. If I want to go on a Friday 50-68 is more likely the cheap seat. So a faster train can't get too much more expensive before I would either fly for the "big bucks" or drive my 42 mpg (highway) Kia Rio, or take the Megabus for 10-20 dollars

Reading the Wiki page on the Wolverine line it mentions track upgrades to accommodate 110mph. Some of that included reconfiguring some bends. I wonder if they reworked those bends with something much faster in mind like the 160mph you mentioned?
Also wondering in your 2 hour scenario how many stops is that? Less than now? If so does a slower train still service those stops or are they no longer serviced at all by a train?

Milwaukee Road RR (now defunct for many reasons including incompetent and greedy management), once ran "high speed" rail service between Chicago and the Twin Cities of Milwaukee/Saint Pete. More so they did it with steam powered locomotives that could easily reach 100mph and in some cases reach 120mph or 125mph.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_A


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_F7





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXKPiOY4zA0




This is what myself and others have been saying. Prior to WWII and perhaps early years afterwards the United States had the fastest, most modern and safest railroads in the world. All this despite near constant federal and local government interference. But something that cannot go on forever must stop. Helped along by generous aid from federal government the post war era was deemed that of the automobile; and to heck with the railroads. Now local governments want to spend *tens of billions* to essentially put back what was ripped up or whatever sixty or so years ago.




It was the railroads in conjunction with American companies like General Electric who invented early forms of in cab signaling, Positive Train Control, and so forth.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uJPycRAnuY

[usroute10]

I think a good location for a downtown station would be the location of the Joe Louis arena. That site is owned by a private company who was a creditor that got shafted in Detroit's bankruptcy, and this was the arena was their consolation prize.

Also, Detroit has some absolutely cavernous salt mines that are extremely deep underground and could accommodate underground rail and rail stations.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by usroute10

I think a good location for a downtown station would be the location of the Joe Louis arena. That site is owned by a private company who was a creditor that got shafted in Detroit's bankruptcy, and this was the arena was their consolation prize.

Also, Detroit has some absolutely cavernous salt mines that are extremely deep underground and could accommodate underground rail and rail stations.

Or riders could take the Q-line to the already existing underutilized station on Baltimore.

[Nattering Heights]

70 year cycles of transportation modes. After the car age, what's next is probably a mix of what has worked before: mostly walking on foot or hoof, with some bikes, boats, trains, and cars.
https://granolashotgun.com/2018/12/0...ure-long-play/

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by Retroit

Or riders could take the Q-line to the already existing underutilized station on Baltimore.

The gentleman's point is that there is no train station downtown, which is the main business center for the city. People coming in from the high speed train from Chicago are mostly going to want to come downtown. The Baltimore station is underutilized because it is literally 3 miles north of city hall.

The Qline is not rapid transit, it gets stuck in heavy automobile traffic and gets stuck when a car or delivery truck is parked in front of it. It is not a form of rapid transit, which is what this thread is all about. Think about it. You take a 150 mile an hour train from Chicago to the Baltimore Station, but for the last 3 miles of the trip, get on the 10 mile per hour trolley from New Center to Downtown. Sounds bad.