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Hard to pinpoint an exact reason especially since downtown, generally, is thriving these days. Part of it is likely mismanagement. Forest City Enterprise seemed incompetent and indifferent to upkeep and grooming quality tenants. But then, FCE sold the entire property in pieces a few years ago, and Dan Gilbert bought the shopping mall portion -- of course, he already owns the neighboring JACK casino (adjacent in the former Higbee's Dept store building). -- The historic Terminal Tower office building was sold to K&D RE enterprises which is converting most of the space into 400 luxury apartments while keeping some of it commercial office space... Since Dan has taken over The Avenue @ TC shopping mall, there have been even more empty storefronts. It's not quite clear what Dan wants to do with the space. Across the street along Public Square/Euclid Ave, he's redeveloping the long-empty May Company Dept store into residences with ground-level retail of some sort, so who knows? ... He did agree to keep the Tower City Cinemas open, for now, where there'd been some rumor that the space would be converted to excess parking. The movie theaters are very lightly patronized on most nights, but are a fantastic venue for the yearly, 2-week Cleveland International Film Festival each spring, esp given the indoor access to the Rapid Transit hub and the food court.
The other more pressing problem for Tower City retail may be its general invisibility. While the old Union Terminal/Terminal Tower complex of interconnected train/rapid transit stations with office buildings, a major hotel (now hotels with the 1990-built Ritz-Carlton), a major department store along with a slew of other retail and restaurants was great, it worked largely because of the visibility of the offices, the Hotel Cleveland (now Renaissance of the Marriott chain), all this went away when Higbee's-turned-Dillard's department store went dark in the year 2000. Higbee's was beloved in Cleveland and, like Macy's nationally today, it was a middle-to-upper end department store** -- loyal clientele never warmed to the Dillard's chain which took over in the late 1980s when Higbee's closed; locals always looked at Arkansas-based Dillard's as a bunch of Southern hicks who don't know high-quality retail, so Dillard's never did well in that space (although the chain remains elsewhere in some suburban malls and, apparently, does OK there).
... so for 12 long years, until Dan Gilbert got Ohio casino legislation passed and opened his original casino brand in Higbee's old space (it was originally was a Horseshoe-brand the Caesar's Palace chain), but even in its rebirth from a dirty, crumbling (though still attractive) 12-story department store on Public Square in Cleveland's downtown core, ... it's a casino not a retailer. Gamblers tend to be single-focused and, per se, aren't shoppers... And with the huge Higbee's edifice gone as as a downtown retail magnet, despite the 24-7 buzz of gamblers (and wannabee gamblers and hang-out folks -- it gets nuts on weekends, esp after a pro-sporting event, esp at the nearby Q arena (Cavs) or Progressive Field (Indians), these folk largely just pass though Tower City's shopping mall ... if they even go through there at all.
... so without Higbee's you have a shopping mall that is out-of-sight and unknown to all who are not among the downtown regulars, including rapid transit commuters who, themselves, often just pass through the place going to/coming from a Rapid train. So the Public Square, "living room" face of the complex is just a train station/casino/hotel... The actual mall is below street level where you can see its massive (and attractive) skylight peak through on Prospect and Huron avenues (and even there, TC stores are not visible at all nor are there even any signs indicating there's a shopping mall there)... Problem is: both these streets are 'back-door' streets to the complex which, again, fronts of Public Square while the mall, itself, actually runs under both Prospect Ave and Huron Road. So if you're not from Cleveland or even from the area and don't get downtown that much, esp to shop (given Cleveland's nearly absurd invasion of suburban malls and lifestyle centers), you don't even know a Tower City mall even exists.
... all that said and with all it's problems, Tower City is still a beautiful, eye-catching architectural masterpiece; FCE planners integrated the old train-station aspects -- chandeliers, gold railings, marble floors, arching doorways, etc, into the shopping mall -- even those who gripe about the lack of quality retail (a Brooks Brothers store does remain) do compliment the building itself and, even as I speak, it's packed with families who love the Christmas decorations, live programs and music the mall annually puts on -- many come via Rapid Transit as they have for decades to Higbee's and the old marble-floored Union Terminal restaurant/retail area...
NOTE: sorry for being rather long-winded off the main topic of Detroit HSR, but I thought it bore explanation given Detroit, Cleveland and all the so-called "Rust Belt" cities (hate that title btw), all have their own unique hurdles to trains, transit and retail.
**You actually get a sense of what hustle/bustle Higbee's (and Public Square, for that matter) was really like, both inside and out, in the opening scenes of much-beloved "A Christmas Story" even though the early 1980s film was set in the post WWII 1940s.
I don't think it's necessary to have a main train station in the CBD to implement proper train service between Chicago-Detroit-Toronto. Michigan Central Station is where it is because of the rail alignment with Windsor and the underwater tunnel, and that's not going to change for a very longtime. Plenty of cities have multiple train stations within the city not in a CBD (NYC's Penn and Grand Central are not in Lower Manhattan), and the Amshack in New Center could be renovated to handle greater passenger loads and be worthy of laying in the shadows of the Fischer Building and Cadillac Place. A New Center depot and Corktown depot would serve greater Detroit very nicely IF there was better public transit within the city...
It's not necessary to go through downtown, but it'd help. Certainly, Michigan Central Station would at least be closer to downtown than its current New Center location. There is that current tunnel across to Windsor which is what might lean things towards using that, but it's not known what state that tunnel is and Windsor/Canada might prefer it to cross elsewhere as well. Tunnel boring can be far less costly in the near future than it has been in the past. If Michigan Central Station and its existing tunnel is where the train crosses the border, then it certainly needs better mass transit access to downtown from where it is and it'd be nice if they decked over more of the John C Lodge Freeway separating the area from downtown either as a greenspace deck or with functional buildings.
NYC's stations might not be in an area labelled downtown, but where it is in Midtown is very much the heart of NYC's CBD. I'm not saying get rid of New Center entirely--I think it's good for continuing services to Pontiac and as a potential route for future commuter rail.
Agreed that the Q-Line isn't very good transit and the People Mover has potential.
In Amtrak’s 2020 budget request, they line item’d with a TBD cost for the restoration of a Detroit-Toronto service. Not much in detail, though I’d imagine it running as basically an extension of a Chicago-Detroit route. The only other service extension request in there is an extension of the Heartland Flyer in Texas and Oklahoma to also go to Kansas.
It's not necessary to go through downtown, but it'd help. Certainly, Michigan Central Station would at least be closer to downtown than its current New Center location. There is that current tunnel across to Windsor which is what might lean things towards using that, but it's not known what state that tunnel is and Windsor/Canada might prefer it to cross elsewhere as well. Tunnel boring can be far less costly in the near future than it has been in the past. If Michigan Central Station and its existing tunnel is where the train crosses the border, then it certainly needs better mass transit access to downtown from where it is and it'd be nice if they decked over more of the John C Lodge Freeway separating the area from downtown either as a greenspace deck or with functional buildings.
NYC's stations might not be in an area labelled downtown, but where it is in Midtown is very much the heart of NYC's CBD. I'm not saying get rid of New Center entirely--I think it's good for continuing services to Pontiac and as a potential route for future commuter rail.
Agreed that the Q-Line isn't very good transit and the People Mover has potential.
I've read about the tunnel to Windsor for years, and understand it connects the current (old) GTW tracks through the Michigan Central terminal.
Is the tunnel double track?
What condition is it in?
I understand it does, or did, move freight at one time. Could it be converted to electric, high-speed passenger service in the future?
Would this be expensive or would it make more sense to bore a whole new tunnel via downtown even given the much larger expense?
I've read about the tunnel to Windsor for years, and understand it connects the current (old) GTW tracks through the Michigan Central terminal.
Is the tunnel double track?
What condition is it in?
I understand it does, or did, move freight at one time. Could it be converted to electric, high-speed passenger service in the future?
Would this be expensive or would it make more sense to bore a whole new tunnel via downtown even given the much larger expense?
The rail line is double-tracked, in good condition, and is still in use by freight, who control the tunnel traffic completely. You can see the rail lines going toward the Detroit River and into the tunnel in the below Google Streetview:
Instead of tunneling downtown, I think a more sensible solution would be to build a rapid transit line along Michigan Avenue, but we can't get it together!!!
The rail line is double-tracked, in good condition, and is still in use by freight, who control the tunnel traffic completely. You can see the rail lines going toward the Detroit River and into the tunnel in the below Google Streetview:
Instead of tunneling downtown, I think a more sensible solution would be to build a rapid transit line along Michigan Avenue, but we can't get it together!!!
Nicely done. Here's the line exiting the tunnel in Windsor:
I would think having such an asset already in place would be the logical starting point for cross-nation passenger service. Upgrades and relocation can come later.
I would think having such an asset already in place would be the logical starting point for cross-nation passenger service. Upgrades and relocation can come later.
I agree that starting with the existing crossing is definitely the most sensible thing to do. Having bus service at whichever Detroit station they use (Michigan Central?) and potentially shuttle services timed around arrivals and departures can make a lot of sense. They should also work out having a streamlined customs and immigration process that's not the mess the NY to Canada trains have where they stop the train before the border while a small team mosey through the traincars.
I agree that starting with the existing crossing is definitely the most sensible thing to do. Having bus service at whichever Detroit station they use (Michigan Central?) and potentially shuttle services timed around arrivals and departures can make a lot of sense. They should also work out having a streamlined customs and immigration process that's not the mess the NY to Canada trains have where they stop the train before the border while a small team mosey through the traincars.
There is already the excellent Canadian VIA service from Windsor to Toronto. I don't think that Amtrak needs to create a whole new service with Detroit as the terminus in place of Windsor. Maybe this proposal is for the U.S. Government to pay for a short extension of the existing Windsor-Toronto line to Detroit using the existing tunnel. If the two nations agree, the Windsor station would have to be relocated to be near the tunnel, because the existing Windsor station is it about 3-4 miles on the other side of town.
There is already the excellent Canadian VIA service from Windsor to Toronto. I don't think that Amtrak needs to create a whole new service with Detroit as the terminus in place of Windsor. Maybe this proposal is for the U.S. Government to pay for a short extension of the existing Windsor-Toronto line to Detroit using the existing tunnel. If the two nations agree, the Windsor station would have to be relocated to be near the tunnel, because the existing Windsor station is it about 3-4 miles on the other side of town.
Yea, the tunnel portal is none too convenient for Windsor.
I reckon a full Chicago-Toronto service via Detroit would be the most useful. There’s already capacity and intent to up Wolverine services. Maybe instead of routing additional services to the Pontiac terminus, a Toronto terminus might be considered instead especially if it’s with “express” or limited stop service.
I reckon a full Chicago-Toronto service via Detroit would be the most useful. There’s already capacity and intent to up Wolverine services. Maybe instead of routing additional services to the Pontiac terminus, a Toronto terminus might be considered instead especially if it’s with “express” or limited stop service.
This is the thing, customs is the issue. For the Adirondack service between Montreal and NYC, Congress passed a bill in the last couple of years which allows Amtrak service to bypass the QC/VT boarder customs, and instead have customs at Central Station in Montreal, but the service needs to get rid of a suburban stop (St. Lambert) so as to stop passangers who haven't cleared customs from boarding. The service hasn't been implemented yet as Montreal Central Station hasn't been upgraded with an American customs area, and it's probably not a high prority in the current administration.
For Chicago to Toronto, I'd imagne that there'd be Amtrak service which runs into Windsor, wishfully by train, but most probably by bus, and pasangers will clear customs/transfer to VIA service for travel to Toronto. The same thing would happen the other way. This would only require that Amtrak and VIA align there schedules to allow for the customs processing/transfer, and of course this timing would be dependent of getting the Chicago to Detroit service reliably on-time enough so as not to strand pasangers in Windsor.
Reliable service requires that Illinois and and Indiana get thier mess of a rail network in order, which is still a couple billion dollars away. I don't want to say Amtrak has a record of putting the cart before the ox, but as an underfunded mandate, I don't know if there are alternative options.
Edit: Here's a PDF that has the latest MDOT info on the track upgrades. MDOT rescinded its notice of intent for environmental studies late last year for the Chicago/Indiana upgrades. It looks like the Federal Railroad Administration was cleaning house as a bunch of other NOIs were rescinded too. MDOT has reserved the right to use the South-of-the-Lake option explored in the studies if/when they move forward.
Last edited by michikawa; 04-11-2019 at 01:49 PM..
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