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View Poll Results: Will Detroit build a heavy rail subway line in the next 100 years?
Totally! 6 10.91%
Better chance of colonizing Mars 49 89.09%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-19-2019, 03:31 PM
 
2,621 posts, read 3,392,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNgFooCj View Post
And unfortunately when thanks to the auto industry, there was the least chance of it happening. Why didn't they build a subway or elevated line in the early 1900s. By 1915 Detroit was already the 4th largest city in the country behind 3 cities that all had started on rapid transit. Even Boston, the city it knocked out of 4th place had heavy rail.

Do you think the auto industry plotted against rail in Detroit that early on or were there other factors at play?

Even Detroit's nearby or near-enough regional neighbor Cleveland, Ohio (i.e, Cuyahoga County in general) started building their train system in the early 1900s and it is rather extensive now (both underground and aboveground heavy-rail trains + light rail + streetcars), along with their regular bus system and then their Bus Rapid Transit system to complement the train system. All covering a good portion of Cuyahoga County, Ohio at-large. And they were a heavily-industrial metro area/region like Detroit. So why didn't metro Detroit do the same? Without knowing the definitive answer myself, I can only take it on faith the assertion that the auto industry was behind the resistance to or outright sabotage of this direction for metro Detroit.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:59 AM
 
Location: 404
3,006 posts, read 1,477,306 times
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Detroit was never crowded enough for the extra expense of burying a train. A streetcar network that covers most of the city is probably a few decades away.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:44 AM
 
6,295 posts, read 11,017,263 times
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I've witnessed the result of the Choo Choo Trolley they built in Cincinnati and it has been a terrible abuse of taxpayer dollars. Nobody rides the thing. Rail, real rail such as heavy rail or light rail can work if you have the population density to support the use of it. But with Detroit still losing people it would be foolish to think a subway is a realistic mass transit option right now and it would cost the taxpayers billions.

Busses are more logical. The routes are flexible and can be added or removed based upon changing demographic trends in a metro area. And they cost far less to build though ultimately the maintenance costs are pretty much on par with that of rail. So, up front costs to develop better bus service is far less money than a rail line.

The Hartford area just implemented a heavy rail commuting line using existing rail between Springfield, MA to Hartford and then to New Haven. Seems to be working well since it allows riders to take a train to NYC from the New Haven station. If Detroit used existing rail lines to tie it to Toledo for example or maybe Grand Rapids, it would keep the cost down to develop. But you would have to look at the commuting patterns of the people along these rail lines to see if there would be sufficient ridership to justify the cost.

Street cars are a waste of money and right now Michigan and Detroit in particular should work on repairing the roads and then improving bus service before thinking about commuter rail.
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Park Rapids
4,357 posts, read 6,502,692 times
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I have light rail being built in my back yard as I type this. A new line is being built in Minneapolis towards the South West suburbs. It can be done.

That said, where in Detroit would you propose a light rail system be built? For all the expense who would this serve? I would seriously doubt it could ever get off the ground in Detroit. Just doesn't appear practical.
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:03 PM
 
915 posts, read 1,495,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
Michigan for all of its beauty has a state government that is notorious for being unable to get out of its own way. They won’t even pony up the $2billion needed to bring the roads back to standard. There’s is no evidence they could justify what would likely be several times that much money to implement an HRT system in “not as dense as it used to be” Detroit.
Agreed! A lot of our elected officials don't miss an opportunity to say "no - we aren't paying for that either!"
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:07 PM
 
1,636 posts, read 2,127,787 times
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I actually think a rail line connecting Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, Metro Airport, Wayne, W. Dearborn, E. Dearborn, Mexican Town, Corktown, Downtown, Rivertown, Belle Isle, and Jefferson Chalmers would not be a waste of money. It would be used by many. The only other issue would be whether to extend the Mline up the Woodward Corridor up to Pontiac.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:53 PM
 
1,996 posts, read 3,136,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
So many things will change and rail is the old way.
Aren't you from an area that has built 3 rapid transit lines in the past 25 years and are building a 4th rail line, yet rail is the old way???
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,703 posts, read 79,445,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
The real question is whether or not subways and trains are the way to go for future urban planning, giving the advances in autonomous travel and driver-less vehicles. Detroit might be at an advantage in not being tied to those modes now. I think in the next 50 years, transportation will be radically changed in America, as well as how we commute in an information age (telecommuting). So many things will change and rail is the old way.
You have a good point. Some other countries are ahead of the usa in infrastructure because they got started later when the technology was better. Wires are int he ground, their phone network has always been wireless, roads were built with better technology to begin with. etc.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:14 PM
 
1,996 posts, read 3,136,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
I've witnessed the result of the Choo Choo Trolley they built in Cincinnati and it has been a terrible abuse of taxpayer dollars. Nobody rides the thing. Rail, real rail such as heavy rail or light rail can work if you have the population density to support the use of it. But with Detroit still losing people it would be foolish to think a subway is a realistic mass transit option right now and it would cost the taxpayers billions.

Busses are more logical. The routes are flexible and can be added or removed based upon changing demographic trends in a metro area.
Streetcars are not rapid transit, they are buses on rail. To compare streetcars to rapid transit

About buses, real rapid transit has significant advantages that can't be realized with just improving bus service:

-Buses are slow, really slow

-Buses stop every 2 blocks

-Buses stop at red lights

-Buses get stuck in traffic

-Have you ever had to board a bus when a lot of people are getting on at a stop? It can take 3, 4, 5 minutes sometimes for everybody to pay their fare before the bus can proceed, while rapid transit is prepayment, no waiting. You just get on and it goes.

-light rail has higher capacity, you can connect 4 or 5 or 6 train cars to each other. You can't connect buses

-Rapid transit brings about significant dense residential and commercial development at stations. I have seen this personally in Oakland-CA, Cleveland, Boston, Chicago, and Washington, DC.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,703 posts, read 79,445,266 times
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Just one subway line is essentially worthless. You need a system for a subway to be workable, not a single line. It really does not matter whether it is subway or elevated, or dedicated lines or lanes at grade. As long as it is not in traffic and subject to lights, stopped cars, etc.

A single line is fun to ride and convenient, but it will not substitute for other modes of transportation. You will still need a car, or at least a bicycle/scooter.
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