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Old 06-20-2008, 03:24 PM
 
8 posts, read 9,821 times
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"So essentially, what you are hoping for is that black’s folks defy nature and feel only LOVE and JOY, despite 400 years of racial degradation by white society?"

INDENTURED SERVANT
KIMBA01, AND NEARBORN:

"Most racism is not defined, but implied, covert and sometimes declared!! Racism has hurt America. Many blame the Southern Plantation owners for most of the problems that plague racial relationships in this country. If Slavery did not exist, the pain and suffering would not have existed so profoundly!! Yes, Black Men are still very angry over the Rape of Black Women who were the Slave Masters "bed warmers". This Issue must be Addressed! The hurt and pain still exists today!! My great grandmother was the child of a Raped Black Slave Woman and the White Slave owner. She was only 14 years old when so was Raped.

Many Whites in the North do not know that 98% of ALL African-Americans in this Country are two races or more. Mr. Obama is considered 1st generation Mulatto. There are millions like him in this country. Most of us are 2nd, and 3rd generation racially mixed people because we marry into families that are racially mixed also. This created multi-racial African-Americans. This is why some African-Americans are born with light color hair, and blue, hazel, and light brown eyes. Some have straight hair, some have real curly hair. Some have light skin, some have medium skin tones, some have darker tones. We did not Create these Features....they were created "for us" by White Men more so than White women having Black Men's babies. I Pray that American address their "Racial Issues" without Racial Slurs.

Our Global Economy and International Trade Agreements have created Joblessness for all Americans. Our way of life have been changed forever...now we must learn to live together." Outsourcing, job redefining, and lower wage scales have put most Americans in different living wage catagories. $10.00 -$14.00 an hour is considered great now....years ago this was salary for the lower middle-class?? These wages cannot and will not qualify any one for a mortgage over $60,000.00!! That is why now, we are living more in the same neighborhoods. Our Suburbs have changed with the lost of Income.

Last edited by Diamond12; 06-20-2008 at 03:37 PM.. Reason: Incomplete

 
Old 06-21-2008, 03:00 PM
 
225 posts, read 750,278 times
Reputation: 122
They're still angry at the white guys who may have owned their ancestors 400 years ago? Sounds like a bunch of rationalization to me. I guess I could still be angry at Austro-Hungary for stealing my ancestors' land. Maybe I'll move to Austria, have a bunch of kids I can't support, leave my wife, no, sorry, my "baby's mother", and blame it all on Franz Josef.
 
Old 06-22-2008, 06:22 AM
 
12,525 posts, read 7,606,780 times
Reputation: 4759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nearborn View Post
They're still angry at the white guys who may have owned their ancestors 400 years ago? Sounds like a bunch of rationalization to me. I guess I could still be angry at Austro-Hungary for stealing my ancestors' land. Maybe I'll move to Austria, have a bunch of kids I can't support, leave my wife, no, sorry, my "baby's mother", and blame it all on Franz Josef.
No I think they are pissed at the contemporary ignorance of whites like you that has to embellish the distance in the past that blacks have been oppressed. Why the need to embellish to make your case? Is it because your real goal is to TRY to make black resentment seem unjustified? My parents, who are alive and well (thank God), lived under the aparthied of Jim Crow in Mississippi. Oh the stories they tell....of white racism that stunted their aspirations. There are millions of living African Americans who suffered under legalized oppression because of their race. Yet.....you try to imply that the oppression of blacks was most recently.....400 years in the past. Again...why would a person do that? What would motivate a person to ignore the TRUTH. Well....the answer is eiher ignorance and or deciet. How can I respect a white person who manifest racial ignorance and or deciet? Why should I not look at YOU as a racist when you manifest core symptoms of racist....which is ignorance and deciet?
 
Old 06-22-2008, 08:28 AM
 
8 posts, read 18,806 times
Reputation: 11
First Nearborn you do sound like someone that still harbors racial intolerance to me. Next, it was about 175 years ago that slavery was abolished and the legacy of segregation was institutionally banished only about 40 years ago, or less than one lifetime to put it in historical perspective.

Your response fails to address the fact that the majority of white people start life with greater wealth at birth than the majority of black people in the US. This is due specifically to that history of slavery and institutional racism and segregation.

If you look at Europe right now, the Western powers are transferring wealth to the former Eastern block nations to help speed integration in the EU. Is this not an effort to right past wrongs or at least create a more level playing field due to economic imbalances? Are the victims of communism in Europe more deserving some how than the victims of slavery and segregation in the US?
 
Old 06-22-2008, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Home!
8,710 posts, read 10,611,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I thought we are a carbon based life form? Don’t you know that chemical reactions manifest in human (life) physiology and behavior? Have not you ever heard of people with chemical imbalances? What gets me is the assumption that humans can and do somehow defy the universal laws of nature. As if we are greater than nature……God like if you will. Well….not to many black folks think we are super natural and above it all….because of the unique abilities of our cerebral cortex.

If, God forbid, someone close to you died…..do you keep yourself from feeling sad? I mean….you have free will and all……but a chemical reaction will be triggered in your body, from the act of death of a loved one, that will naturally result in the reaction of sadness. That’s how things work guy. I understand the point you are trying to make, but the point is essentially in defiance of the law of nature. Actions will always produce reactions whether in humans or sticks of dynamite. To deny that is the real cop out.

So essentially, what you are hoping for is that black’s folks defy nature and feel only LOVE and JOY, despite 400 years of racial degradation by white society? You did not do as Jesus would do…..but you want us to be Jesus like in our response to devilish mistreatment and when we don’t, but instead manifest resentment and distrust at the oppressing group…..we are just as bad. Nope….it just does not work that way in the real world. Why don’t we love the terrorist who flew Airplanes into buildings on 911? We have free will. Why don’t we love murders instead of locking them up in jail? We have free will. Given free will…….we should never act with anger….only love and compassion….and it’s a cop out to rationalize behaving any other way….as I am sure you have never gotten angry or reacted negatively, to negative actions toward you….in your life. Why don’t I believe that?

Every emotion we have is due to it playing a role in our survival. To turn off certain emotions, as you propose, would threaten survival and not enhance it.
I did not say that actions do not produce reactions. I said you have a CHOICE as to how you will react to a given situation. Does everyone cry at a funeral? No. Why does one person sob and another not? Whether it is chemical makeup or not, it begins with choice. There are also any number of reasons someone's chemical balance could be different than someone elses. This does not compare to an act of ignorant purportions, such as crime. Then to use oppression as an excuse for that behavior. Sorry, I don't buy that. From anyone of any color.

I am sure there are many people who have forgiven the terrorists. They don't agree with their actions but they choose to not let it live inside them. That would be giving them what they wanted.

I never said to "turn off certain emotions". Control them. Get past it. It does not need to impede a person's growth forever. Many people have risen above their pasts and are much better for it. I never said to forget it, quite the contrary in my last line. And I never said that anyones reactions only had to do with LOVE and JOY. Of course people get angry, but you can control your response to that feeling. You can choose to yell, hit a wall, kick the dog, or shoot someone. Not great options, I am sure, but if one person chooses to yell and the other chooses to shoot, it is not because you were oppressed-I don't care if it was 10 years ago. THAT IS THE COPOUT. Even someone who was held captive, knows the difference between right and wrong.

Here is my main point-you say, "you did not do as Jesus would do..." You see--I did not DO any of it. YOU were not the slave. Yet, I am being held responsible for the ignorant actions of a group of people that I had no control over. When the blaming stops, people may just learn to live together in better peace. I do not agree with slavery in any capacity for any race.

I am saying quit using it as an excuse for terrible behavior and bad choices. Rise above, do the right thing and live to be a better person in your world. Not just blacks, any race-all races.
 
Old 06-22-2008, 07:08 PM
 
225 posts, read 750,278 times
Reputation: 122
Quote:
There are millions of living African Americans who suffered under legalized oppression because of their race. Yet.....you try to imply that the oppression of blacks was most recently.....400 years in the past. Again...why would a person do that?
Why? Because you brought up the "400 years" number in your post that prompted my response, that's why. Sure, blacks were oppressed more recently than 400 years, but not by me. And there haven't been any blacks of the last couple generations who have been oppressed by white society in Detroit.

Quote:
So essentially, what you are hoping for is that black’s folks defy nature and feel only LOVE and JOY, despite 400 years of racial degradation by white society?
I really couldn't care less about what your ancestors experienced in Mississippi. Really, I couldn't. I don't even care about the conditions MY family suffered in genernations ago. They're all dead. It's the past and I don't predicate my success or failure on what they did or didn't do. I never saw a dime from my parents or grandparents. They didn't give me a house, they didn't send me to college and they didn't raise my kids. I was on my own by the time I was out of high school for a year. My dad's advice was "Get a job or join the Army". I hate to sound cold, but I have no white guilt. At the time you mention, my white immigrant grandparents were working in the coal fields of Eastern KY. They had nothinng to do with oppressing your ancestors. I feel no guilt based on the fact that they were born white.

I also feel no guilt as a white guy because a black person, in today's Detroit has more opportunity that a white person. And that's been true ever since about 1974.

I've been the victim of multiple felonies over my lifetime, all of them in Detroit and most of them committed by young black males. I don't blame the race for their action, but I sure as hell don't blame MY race either. I blame the guy who robbed me just like I blame the dumbass who would rather sell dope than show up for school for his failure in "white society". I really don't think that 400 years of oppression has programmed the black genetic code for crime, drug use and reliance on welfare programs. My ancestors came here with nothing. My great grandfather was a drunk who never worked a day in his life and had 10 kids. after he had the tenth, he took off for "the old country" leaving 10 kids and their mother. None of the kids wound up on welfare and they all became productive members of society. Some worked menial jobs like coal mining, houskeeping or general labor and others joined the military. None of them got Pell Grants, preferential admissions to U of M. Nor did they benefit from any "white advantage" like legacy preference for college. In fact, my grandfather only had a 6th grade education and I only have a high school dimploma with some worthless college credits. In the coal fields of Eastern KY and Pennsylvania during the Jim Crow days, a white Slavic immigrant fresh off the boat wasn't worth any more to the company than a black migrant from the deep south.

Young people in Detroit have a lot more opportunity than my grandparents had, starting out with the same deficit. In fact, opportunity is practically shoved down their throats! Yet my family was able to adapt and overcome in one generation. This was NOT an anomoly. MANY white families had the same experience, DURING THE DEPRESSION TOO! So, sorry, you'll get no "understanding" from me. White society isn't forcing people to procreate beyond their ability to feed their young, let alone beyond their ability to raise their children responsibly. You can't blame the single-parent (or grandparent-as-head-of-the-household) on white society anymore. There comes a time when you have to take responsibility for yourself and leave the excuses and rationalizations behind. That time is at least a generation ago. Resent whitey all you want, but at least get a job and either don't have kids or only have kids if you can afford while you're doing your resenting. And by YOU and YOUR, I'm speaking generically of those who find themselves in a hole and blame some other race for their problems in 2008 Detroit.

Last edited by Nearborn; 06-22-2008 at 07:58 PM..
 
Old 06-22-2008, 07:35 PM
 
8 posts, read 18,806 times
Reputation: 11
I'm certainly not asking you to feel guilty but I am requesting that you acknowledge reality. The coal mine your forbears worked in was likely closed at that time to blacks that wanted to work. This was also true of most unions. In many places it was not possible for black Americans to own land. These injustices did not occur in the distant past. They happened in many instances in my lifetime. "Skin privilege" existed and to some degree still exists albeit in more clandestine forms, today. This is what made it possible frequently for recent European immigrants to economically advance past the position many blacks found themselves in. They weren't segregated by law. This is why the wealth disparity between the two communities exists in large measure today.
 
Old 06-22-2008, 07:43 PM
 
225 posts, read 750,278 times
Reputation: 122
Quote:
I'm certainly not asking you to feel guilty but I am requesting that you acknowledge reality. The coal mine your forbears worked in was likely closed at that time to blacks that wanted to work.
It was absolutely not closed to blacks. In fact blacks were recruited as a labor force so that the company could play them against the other two groups, those being native whites and Eastern-European white immigrants that were played against the blacks and native borns. And blacks were paid the same as whites.....not in cash, but in company scrip. They wouldn't be paying in cash for years. Unions? John L. Lewis didn't come to that particular town while my grandparents were there. My forbears couldn't own land either. They lived in company housing. And if they pissed off the straw boss, they were out of a job and kicked out of the company house. Black, White, European or Native-Born, if you didn't buy it from the company with company scrip, you didn't buy it, and if you didn't live in a company house, you didn't live in town. That's the environment my famiy experienced after coming to this country. And when the strikes did start, the strike-breaking "cops" and Pinkertons would beat and shoot an Italian just as fast as they'd beat or shoot a native-born Black.

If you're black in today's Detroit, the playing field has been more than level for the last two generations. The question is, what are you going to do with it? You can use history as an excuse for failure even with the playing field tilted way over to your advantage, or you can do what every class of immigrant has been doing in the face of "native-born priviledge" for generations. If you can't make it happen in today's Detroit, you really need to stop blaming my family and look in the mirror.

Last edited by Nearborn; 06-22-2008 at 07:54 PM..
 
Old 06-22-2008, 07:57 PM
 
2,790 posts, read 5,801,320 times
Reputation: 1944
So where does this leave people whose families did not live in the United States during slave times? People whose families were being repressed in their own countries. Is there is place for them in the solution? Or are they being discriminated against because people assume if they are white they must have contributed to the racial discord?
 
Old 06-22-2008, 09:46 PM
 
392 posts, read 1,731,723 times
Reputation: 296
My biggest question with Detroit is why it can we never move past this? I moved away and found out that people of different different colors of backgrounds can live together!! Who knew??? When I come home it is the same old tired crap...everyone more concerned with hating each other than moving forward. It is all so sad, we all have so much more to worry about and bigger enemies. I think if everyone could step back for a moment they might see that but instead it just seems easier to cling to the same old garbage that has been handed down since before we were all even born.
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