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Old 01-02-2009, 03:45 PM
 
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Let’s, by logical methodology, start by what is known and see if we can make logical inference and deductions concerning things that are more spurious in regards to their veracity. We know that blacks came from Africa and are not indigenous to the Americas. We also know that the original colonizes were the port of entry for African slaves. Even “the North” had slavery in the beginning of this nation, however, large numbers of Africans had not been brought over from Africa at that time and the black population in northern cities was not that high in percentages. The North outlawed slavery much earlier than the South. Hence, the vast majority of Africans ended up in the South as slaves and those that could escape ended up North or in Canada, in small percentages. Many Southern cities and states had more blacks than whites and there was always the fear of uprising and overthrow in the South because of the numbers.

Anyway, the North was settled by the Europeans, who drove out the Indigenous natives and placed them on reservations, if they were not wiped out via war and diseases contracted from Europeans. The massive waves of immigrants from Europe populated North American cities. So these cities, like Detroit, were initially overwhelmingly white. Moreover, let us not focus on municipal boundaries, because that distorts what is really happening. To ask how the city of Detroit became 80% black is really the wrong question, for one who seeks understanding. The real question is how do communities, which were once all white, go to all black? How did the South side of Chicago, the core of SE Grand Rapids, the East side of Saginaw (I think), the North side of Flint (I think), the North side of Milwaukee….become majority black when they were once majority white? In fact, how did Southfield Michigan, a middle class suburb of Detroit, with low rates of crime relative to Detroit, no fiery black mayor…..go from being overwhelmingly white to majority black today?

Communities that were once majority white, but went to majority black represents two facts. The first fact is that blacks were willing to integrate and live in communities that were predominantly white. I mean…..a community cannot go from nearly all white to nearly all black without blacks demonstrating the willingness and desire to integrate with whites. That is just fact. Secondly, it demonstrates that many whites were not willing to integrate……because they left when black percentages started breaking the psychological threshold of comfort for whites, what seems to be around 20%.....that’s when white flight ramps up or did historically, until it tappers off or is renewed via some gentrification projects that create white enclaves by virtue of class dynamics not allowing the previous black population to afford to live there any longer.

So historically it is clear that blacks desired to integrate…..and demonstrated it, while whites demonstrated the desire not to integrate. Thus, there is no moral equivalence here, between the behaviors. Granted, after being rejected and treated as if you are not wanted for so long, people naturally REACT with pride and start rejecting the people who reject them. All actions produce reactions and a people cannot be treated badly for years, because of their race, and expect that there will not be a negative reaction to it against the group that has degraded their humanity. So a sort of “black pride” developed in reaction to the “black inferiority” treatment coming from the larger society. This black pride manifests in many different ways…….racism, resentment, self segregation….ect. It does not make the reaction right……but very, very predictable if one understands human nature.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:04 PM
 
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I think the white flight theory is somewhat of a myth. In fact, on the southeast side of Grand Rapids in the 60's, blacks tried very hard to drive whites out of the neighborhood. It wasn't just equal opportunity crime, it was racist violence to get whites out. Been there, lost a lot of blood in my old neighborhood. My theory is that the black clergy were trying to organize violence against non-blacks, but I don't know that for sure.

The violence that went on in urban Michigan was one of the worst cases of racial violence this country has ever seen. Probably more people were "lynched" in Michigan than in the south.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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Personal experience and or conjecture are not helpful or fruitful. Even if this is what you experienced personally, you cannot demonstrate that this experience was either a microcosm ....or anomaly. I personally dismiss it because there is no data to support your claims on any scale of significance. Were there blacks, reacting to centuries of mistreatment and denigration of blacks, who were fiery and reactionary and willing to fight fire with fire……ignorance with ignorance…..violence with violence....Yes sir. However, the fact of the matter is that blacks kept integrating SE Grand Rapids.... meaning that they were demonstrating the willingness to live around whites…..while white, in abandoning these communities, demonstrated the opposite. Again, no conjecture needed…..no subjective analysis…..simply the objective fact that blacks moved in and whites moved out. Now, one always has to look at the context that any story is unfolding to glean understanding. 200 years from now, when history is looked back upon objectively, without fear of guilt or recrimination, historians will see the era as one of white intolerance of blacks. In fact, an objective and honest person cannot argue that the vast majority of the history of this nation has not been one of racial intolerance of blacks, by the larger white society. Of course…..not all whites, but the general white society looked upon blacks as inferior and degraded them. So to dismiss this historical pattern from the motives of whites in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, when they were abandoning communities with haste, as blacks integrated them……is incredulous. The idea that whites left because blacks were driving them out with attacks and calls for violence is a misrepresentation of truth. Yes, there were RIOTS and most of the folks killed in those riots were blacks killed by police. The truth is that whites moved out from FEAR that they would be attacked….and from fear that propert values would fall…..and from fear that their daughters would by preyed upon by black males……..

In truth, white society kind of created a self fulfilling prophecy concerning blacks. Many whites had negative beliefs and stereotypes of blacks and subsequently treated blacks in a way that lead to blacks reacting or existing in a manner that proved these stereotypes correct. For example, if people thought blacks were lazy they did not hire them and hence the fact that many blacks did not have jobs confirmed, in the mind of many, that blacks were lazy and did not want to work. Or they gave blacks the worst jobs to do with the lowest pay and when blacks complained or quite that would confirm that they were lazy and did not want to work. Or like when people assumed their property values decline when blacks moved in, so the rush of whites to move out and none that wanted to move in resulted in property values declining from the drop in demand for these communities. When the declined further, then properties were turned to rentals or poorer blacks were able to purchase them. It’s almost laughable how this works……but that is how it works.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Yes sir. However, the fact of the matter is that blacks keep integrating SE Grand Rapids, meaning that they were demonstrating the willingness to live around whites…..
They didn't integrate the area because they were "willing to live around whites", they did it because they refused to live around their old neighbors, who were...guess who? I'm as anti white flight as the next guy, but let's not be naive.

Quote:
The real question is how do communities, which were once all white, go to all black?
The Jewish folks leave all at once, creating a powerful vaccuum ripe for blockbusting.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
I can't understand why of all the cities in the USA, Detroit has to be stuck in its racist, fearful BS, 50 years behind everyone else.
Basically...It's the whole area too.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:09 PM
 
60,412 posts, read 85,462,157 times
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Originally Posted by skyl4rk View Post
I think the white flight theory is somewhat of a myth. In fact, on the southeast side of Grand Rapids in the 60's, blacks tried very hard to drive whites out of the neighborhood. It wasn't just equal opportunity crime, it was racist violence to get whites out. Been there, lost a lot of blood in my old neighborhood. My theory is that the black clergy were trying to organize violence against non-blacks, but I don't know that for sure.

The violence that went on in urban Michigan was one of the worst cases of racial violence this country has ever seen. Probably more people were "lynched" in Michigan than in the south.
After going to MSU for 3 years, I saw how divided the state is, but it does vary by where you are in Michigan too. It didn't surprise me when a professor told me that MSU was one of the most segregated campuses in the US.

Also, how do you know the clergy were trying to encourage violence? Remember, it was the 60's and there were enough issues to go around.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:14 PM
 
60,412 posts, read 85,462,157 times
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Originally Posted by and the View Post
They didn't integrate the area because they were "willing to live around whites", they did it because they refused to live around their old neighbors, who were...guess who? I'm as anti white flight as the next guy, but let's not be naive.



The Jewish folks leave all at once, creating a powerful vaccuum ripe for blockbusting.
I think many Blacks that moved from majority Black neighborhoods did it to move to places with more resources. It wasn't so much about leaving other Blacks, per se. Remember, that most Blacks regardless of income levels were indirectly or even is some cases directly, forced into living in neighborhoods that were segregated through redlining and other means. So, I believe it was more about resources and opportunity. For instance, my family moved out of our city in the early 80's not to move away from other Blacks, but to move to a place with a good educational system, among other things and did it with an open mind.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:21 PM
 
Location: southern california
57,810 posts, read 76,763,748 times
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Originally Posted by cardwellave View Post
white flight started here in the 50s and 60s like in a lot of US cities. This was sped up by a race riot and a racist black mayor, Coleman Young. Put that together with 30 years of decline and you have Detroit.
interesting when they move out they call it white flight
when they move in they call it gentrification.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:23 PM
 
60,412 posts, read 85,462,157 times
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Personal experience and or conjecture are not helpful or fruitful. Even if this is what you experienced personally, you cannot demonstrate that this experience was either a microcosm ....or anomaly. I personally dismiss it because there is no data to support your claims on any scale of significance. Were there blacks, reacting to centuries of mistreatment and denigration of blacks, who were fiery and reactionary and willing to fight fire with fire……ignorance with ignorance…..violence with violence....Yes sir. However, the fact of the matter is that blacks kept integrating SE Grand Rapids.... meaning that they were demonstrating the willingness to live around whites…..while white, in abandoning these communities, demonstrated the opposite. Again, no conjecture needed…..no subjective analysis…..simply the objective fact that blacks moved in and whites moved out. Now, one always has to look at the context that any story is unfolding to glean understanding. 200 years from now, when history is looked back upon objectively, without fear of guilt or recrimination, historians will see the era as one of white intolerance of blacks. In fact, an objective and honest person cannot argue that the vast majority of the history of this nation has not been one of racial intolerance of blacks, by the larger white society. Of course…..not all whites, but the general white society looked upon blacks as inferior and degraded them. So to dismiss this historical pattern from the motives of whites in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, when they were abandoning communities with haste, as blacks integrated them……is incredulous. The idea that whites left because blacks were driving them out with attacks and calls for violence is a misrepresentation of truth. Yes, there were RIOTS and most of the folks killed in those riots were blacks killed by police. The truth is that whites moved out from FEAR that they would be attacked….and from fear that propert values would fall…..and from fear that their daughters would by preyed upon by black males……..

In truth, white society kind of created a self fulfilling prophecy concerning blacks. Many whites had negative beliefs and stereotypes of blacks and subsequently treated blacks in a way that lead to blacks reacting or existing in a manner that proved these stereotypes correct. For example, if people thought blacks were lazy they did not hire them and hence the fact that many blacks did not have jobs confirmed, in the mind of many, that blacks were lazy and did not want to work. Or they gave blacks the worst jobs to do with the lowest pay and when blacks complained or quite that would confirm that they were lazy and did not want to work. Or like when people assumed their property values decline when blacks moved in, so the rush of whites to move out and none that wanted to move in resulted in property values declining from the drop in demand for these communities. When the declined further, then properties were turned to rentals or poorer blacks were able to purchase them. It’s almost laughable how this works……but that is how it works.
Interesting and there are many places where things like what you said happened.

Also, keep in mind that certain industries were looking for Black labor. Think about cities like Detroit(auto/steel), Gary(steel), Oakland(shipping), St. Louis/East St. Louis(auto/steel), Buffalo(auto/steel), Youngstown(steel) and the Pittsburgh area(steel/coal). they all were areas with industries like the auto, steel and shipping industries that have a history of looking for Black people to work. These were industries that allowed Blacks to have a chance at middle class life and most were encouraged to come around the World Wars, when much of the man power was gone to fight in those wars. I think that is a part of the reason why there has been some tension and/or segregation in these cities to varying degrees. These cities have all fell on hard times when these industries have declined over the last few decades. In turn, many Whites left these cities for suburbs or these areas altogether, while Blacks, who's main reason for being in these cities have declined, generally stay.
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:35 PM
 
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indentured servant, are u from the detroit area? some of the commercials say shop shop at certain stores because they are black owned. the mayor talks about how he wants it to be a chocolate city, etc. whites are not welcome. what does white people moving out of the city have to do with these areas being ghetto anyway. is it possible that the reason it is ghetto, is because the people that live there(80% black) start houses on fire on devils night, or maybe because they shoot guns to celebrate the new year. or maybe they don't have the resources because the TWICE elected mayor WAS RIPPING THE CITY OFF. or maybe the school district doesn't have the resources because the children don't go to school. maybe the children don't go to school because of terrible parenting. don't be so naive, statistics can't explain what's going on there, it must be see by the person explaining. and if you are from the detroit area, (which i don't know if you are or not) and you were honest with yourself. i believe you would say the stuff your spouting is rubbish.
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