Can Anyone Tell Me About Wayne State University and Wayne State University Law School? (Detroit: real estate, apartments)

[Bhaalspawn]

Here are two recent posts at the End of Esq. blog that you might find interesting. I'm not the only person who is skeptical about the value of a law degree:

End of ESQ. » How Will The Profession Be Changed By The Deep Recession

End of ESQ. » Court “Information Centers” Elevates Court Clerks To Lawyer Status

[tabbcat]

I think the fact that two people in this thread already are advising you to think carefully about your decision means that you should think carefully about your decision I wish I'd known what Bhaal is telling you before I sunk $100k into a law degree that I wanted to use, and no longer feel as passionately about. There's no need to get so defensive about good advice. I have an MBA and a JD, and I'm thinking Bhaal is similarly degreed, so we're not idiots Just offering a different viewpoint. If you want to practice law, you want to practice law. If you want a law degree to supplement a business education, its value is questionable.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by MetsNY

By the way, Coldjensens thanks for the positive reply. As a WSU grade did you have trouble finding work? How was it coming from Michigan and passing the bar in California?

I was a wsu undergrad. I went to U-M for law school. However some friends and a lot of the people in my firm went to WSU.

ThE CAl Bar exam is hard, but if you take PMBR and a bar exam class (PMBR is for the mu7ltistate) and do the work it is not so bad. I took the CA bar after lawschool and then too the South Carolina Bar five years later. (I waived int o Michigan) The CA bar was definietely harder than the SC bar, but neither was easy. Neither was inrumountable either. I managed to study for and take the SC bar while working 1800-2000 hours a year.

Some of the comments are not too far off although a bit exaggerated and perhaps some sour grapes thrown in. More lawyers report dissatisfaction with their profession than any other job. It is a hard job. A law degree is not a gravy ticket. It is also a challenging, and sometimes exciting job. Litigation is very stressful. A lot of peopple die from the stress. At least in litigation, the practice of law seems to have bigger highs and lows than most other professions. The lows (when you hate the work) are extremely low but the highs (when you love it are also extremely high. Unfortunately, you tend to bounce back and forth a lot.

A lot of the practice of law is sales. It is all about getting clients (and keeping them). If you are not good with people and good at marketing, it is a bad choice for a profession. People think that certain trades or majors are better for being a lwyer. One of the best backgrounds is a car salesman. (The good honest kind, not the flim flam artist).

I know a lot of people who got their law degree and eventually ended up doing something else. None of them regret getting a law dregee. Not even the guy who eventually weent back to drawing cartoon for a well not comic strip author.

Borrowing too much cna make you a slave to your loans. You will have to practice in a firm, because that is the only way you can make the payments. The solution is to not borrow that muc, or make sure that you can handle law firm practice. Not all firms are bad. Both my present firm and my former firm treat associates pretty well. Billable hours are about 1900. That is tough. 1900 is more common billing requirement than 2100. 2100 is insane. I hit that some years, but to be required to do that every years means either you have no life, or you are cheating on your time sheets. However there are law firms that requiored as much as 2400 hours billed each year. Add to that an obligation to bring in clients, and you end up spending over 3000 hours a year working. Probably more

Keep in mind, that if you bill honestly, you need to work about 10 hours to bill 8. Do the math and you will see that this career eats up a lot of your overall time. If you do not like your job as a lawyer, then you will not like your life.

The practice of law is not a good idea for everyone. It works best for workaholics. The divorce rate and alcoholism rate amongst lawyers is very high. Your best bet is to quit drinking altogether after law school and sit down and ponder your life prioities every week. You can have a good life and a good family as a lawyer, but it takes a huge effort to do so.

As far as finding work When I graduated from U-M There were more firms interviewing on campus than their were students. I have little problem finding a job in the specific city that I wanted (Newport BEach CA) Now things are very different. MAny many law firmshave quit hiring first years. They are too much trouble. Big firms and very small firms still hire first years. Very few mid sized ones do.

If you get a JD, when you get out of school and start working, do all that you can to develop a book of business. That is the hardest thing to do as a lawyer, but it is what makes you successful.

Good Luck.

[ocean2026]

Cold I was wondering why I always thought your posts were articulate and informative- must be that law background. I went to Indiana Univ and Cal-Berkeley.

If someone is going to simply hang out a shingle - its probably best to attend law school near where you will practice. Some of the lower ranked law schools used to require 90-95 hrs to graduate- while most top schools only ask for 81 or 82. Why pay the extra cost and spend the extra time for a degree perhaps worth less? Check the catalog.
Another advantage of top schools is for big law firm employment or professorships.

Having provided all this logical advice --- I picked Cal Berkeley cause I thought it was the coolest and best university in the world and I picked Indiana University because of its super-basketball program and great female to male ratio!

I went to Cal undergrad but thought it would make me look too radical if i went to law school there too, as I figured I would end up back in Texas. Now people have to wait till I open my mouth to know that I think differently -except my kids made me run for school board last year and I went door-to-door wearing my Cal hat-teasing all the Longhorn and Aggie alums and insulting ( in a nice way of course!) the Bush supporters.

[detroit313girl]

wayne state is probably best know for the medical but they do have a solid law program....the downtown area is thriving...its the suburbs that are struggling

[The_Cadillac_Lawyer]

I too am aspiring to attend law school, and am currently finishing my BA here in AZ at ASU, I'm from MI but have been here the past two years due to lack of jobs in MI. I'm a non-traditional student with the will power and determination of a stubborn mule. I have heard both sides of the debate from attorneys in my own family and total strangers.
Bhaalspawn you make some good points but man you sound so cynical that I couldn't continue to read your post.
Bottom line is your life/degree/profession will be what you make of it, and put into it. If you were a sh1tty plumber, or a sh1tty student then chances are you'll be a sh1tty lawyer. I WILL graduate with my JD, and I WILL practice law, but I have other passions as well like politics, and business ownership.
OP, I applaud your determination and your drive, Keep it up!
I'm considering applying for U of M or Michigan State if I don't stay in Arizona, WSU never even crossed my mind, but I would consider that as well.
Others have advised me as well to shoot for the best schools, because it will indeed be a tad difficult to find a job with all the other competition out there.

[renter8319]

i believe bhaalspawn is making some great points. a good friend of mine graduated law school recently(about 6-9 months ago) and still hasn't found a job. he has an undergrad degree from uofm and a jd from msu. he passed the bar in chicago, but is looking all over the country. he tells me that his law school friends are having the same problems. he has tons and tons of debt. luckily for him he is looking in the patent attorney. meaning he already has an engineering degree to fall back on if he can't find a law job. he is focused on finding a law job particularly in a large city. i told him it might be a good idea to expand his search to get a foot in the door so he has some experience to put on a resume. i also told him it might not be a bad idea to keep his mind open to engineering jobs.

[zakian]

Oh, about Wayne State Law School. I think it's a low second-tier law school but the best in the state of Michigan after the top-ten ranked U-of-M (which is a national law school where most graduates leave the state afterwards). If you want to work as a lawyer in Michigan it might not be so bad but I doubt that it's name and reputation would have much value outside the state of Michigan.


I use to take care of the law school at U of M. EXCELLENT.
My daughter graduated ,
WITH HONORS from State. She married a lawyer. Believe me, I know both.
If you are serious, forget Wayne State.

[Neutral]

Originally Posted by MetsNY

The facts are like this, to get any type of job today outside of performing physical, backbreaking labor you need some sort of higher education.

Not true.

But then again I am biased because I do not have an employee mindset nor do I believe that formal education is the key to success and/or intelligence, but I do expect that most people would argue otherwise.

I did however drink the Kool-Aid and because of that, I'm not buying it anymore. There are a lot of dirty little secrets that need to be revealed.

Originally Posted by MetsNY

but let me ask you something what do you except people to do without an education?

Originally Posted by MetsNY

I don't care if its out a factory, a person with a better educaiton is more likely to get the job.

[Bhaalspawn]

Here's a short video that does a good job of presenting a visual image of the situation:

End of ESQ. » Law Schools Are Now Accepting Applications

People are rushing into the field in the hopes of escaping a rising tide of unemployment and underemployment in other fields without realizing that they're liable to end up in the exact same situation afterwards, only with a huge amount of law school loan debt.

Anyone who is considering going to law school today needs to give very, very serious consideration to the possibility that they might not find a law job and might not be able to develop a legal career. Think back to your Economics 101 class and contemplate the concept of supply and demand as it might apply to labor markets. Yes, of course you're hard-working and determined and bullheaded, but so are a great many other attorneys. The sad fact of reality is that attorneys and smart, hard-working people are a dime-a-dozen relative to the market demand for them.

Also, consider the price of law school today. It is now insane! I took a look at what schools are charging for tuition today and now regard the cost of my legal education years ago as a bargain. Holy cow! In under ten years the cost to attend my alma matter has increased by about 72%! Tuition at a top school is now a whopping $43,000/year. Even some lower tier schools are charging that. If your living expenses are $17,000/year ($60,000/year total), then you'll need to finance about $180,000 to become a lawyer. Is three years of tremendous effort, misery, and $180,000 of law school student loan debt worth it to join a severely overcrowded field and a field that a great many practitioners, including well-compensated (and overworked) associates and partners at large firms, regard as being very miserable? What if you can only get a job that pays $40,000/year; how the heck would you pay off $180,000 in debt?

Anyone who is considering law school today owes it to themselves to invest a large amount of time into thoroughly investigating the realities of the legal job market and the legal profession. It's not like it was before the Eighties. This is a very overpopulated, competitive, miserable field.

I understand that if you're a political science major that you might be looking for a marketable field to enter, but this isn't it. I suggest going to nursing school instead.